Speaker 0 00:00:00 So you start looking for what are the options? Sometimes it's queer, there's only one good option available, but a lot of times there's two or three options. And then you go back to the company or the individual and say, look, these are your options. Here are the pluses and minuses of each one. One might be a more
Speaker 1 00:00:16 All present business before the honorable the Supreme court of the United States.
Speaker 2 00:00:22 Welcome to the us law essentials law and language podcast, the legal English podcast for non-native English speakers that helps you improve your English, listening, improve your legal English vocabulary and build your knowledge of American legal culture. Hi, this is Daniel. And before we begin today's episode, I wanna remind you that us law essentials offers online courses in legal English, and online courses in us law. Our courses are designed for international attorneys, students, translators, and bar candidates. If you have any questions, please
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Speaker 3 00:01:15 Welcome to us law essentials lawn language podcast. I'm your host, Stephen Horowitz. And today we continue our series of interviews with multilingual lawyers with our special guest immigration lawyer, Nicholas Harling, uh, but first a shout out to one of this podcast, super fans, Pablo clamor, Pablo is from Argentina and recently moved to Washington DC because his wife, Paula Arturo became one of my legal English faculty colleagues at Georgetown law, but it was only after I met Paula that I learned that Pablo was already a regular listener of the podcast. So Pablo, thanks for listening. And if anyone else out there is a regular listener and wants to let us know, or if you know someone who is a regular listener and you wanna let us know about them, just email Daniel, us law, essentials.com and let us know, and we'll give a shout out on a future episode. Okay. And now let me tell you about today's multilingual lawyer, guest immigration lawyer, Nick Harling. First I know Nick because like me many years ago, he taught English in Japan on the Japan exchange teaching program, also known as the jet program. And we're both involved with the jet alumni community. Um, Nick is a graduate of Charleston law school. He was Magna KU Ladi, which if you don't know what that means, that means the top grade in the class. Um, for the top, what is it? The top? The top couple of grades, right.
Speaker 0 00:02:43 <laugh> I can't remember
Speaker 3 00:02:43 That a V top grade. Okay. Sorry. And, uh, and he graduated undergraduate from Davidson college, uh, with a bachelor's in political science. Is
Speaker 0 00:02:54 That right? That's correct. That's right.
Speaker 3 00:02:55 And since 2019, he's been of council at the Garfinkel immigration law firm in Charlotte, North Carolina. Um, prior to that, he was a trial attorney, uh, at the department of justice in, uh, the office of immigration litigation. Uh, and prior to that, he taught English in Japan for four years in Kyoto and also in M prefecture. So welcome Nick.
Speaker 0 00:03:22 Thanks, Steven. It's great to be here.
Speaker 3 00:03:25 And do you prefer Nick or Nicholas?
Speaker 0 00:03:27 Uh, casually. I go by Nick. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:03:29 Okay, great. Then I'm gonna keep calling you Nick here. Yeah, that works. I have to go back and re-edit the, the whole intro part. Okay. <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:03:37 So Don need to do that
Speaker 3 00:03:39 Anyway. It it's really great to have you here, especially because you, you you're specialized in immigration law, which I know is a topic of, of interest to many of our listeners. Um, uh, but first question I wanna ask is what languages do you speak?
Speaker 0 00:03:55 So I speak, I speak Japanese. Uh, and I picked that up when I was living in Japan for four years. I lived, as you mentioned, I lived in Japan. It was, uh, 2001 to 2005. So it has been a while. Uh, but I I've done my best to try and keep it up in the years in the years since it, uh, it really has become a hobby for me.
Speaker 3 00:04:15 Do you, do you, are you still able to think in Japanese?
Speaker 0 00:04:19 I do think in Japanese, uh, I recently in recent years have not dreamt in Japanese. That was something that, uh, that I did have occur to me that was kind of wild when I was living in Japan. Um, but, uh, sure. I can, I can still, uh, craft thoughts and, and sentences and conversations, that sort of thing.
Speaker 3 00:04:40 And can you, can you do math in your head in Japanese?
Speaker 0 00:04:45 Yeah. I, I don't really have much, much call to do that, but I, I, I think I could, yeah.
Speaker 3 00:04:51 Wow. Okay. To me, I, I used to always think about, can somebody dream in, in another language, but now I realize doing math in another language, that's, that's the hard thing to do.
Speaker 0 00:05:00 Well, they would ha it would have to be simple math cause that's the only kind of math I do in my head in English. So, um, yeah.
Speaker 3 00:05:07 Good to know. Okay. So we won't, we won't, uh, give you any math quizzes on this episode.
Speaker 0 00:05:11 Yeah, please. Don't <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:05:13 Okay. And, and what countries have you lived in or have you been to in your life?
Speaker 0 00:05:18 Yeah, so I've lived in Japan for four years, uh, with the jet program before that, while an undergraduate, I spent a semester living in and studying in Geneva, Switzerland, and during that semester traveled around Europe quite a bit. Uh, while I was on jet also took vacations to China, Thailand, Vietnam. Um, most of my travel has been limited to, to Europe and, and east Asia.
Speaker 3 00:05:46 Oh, that's, that's great that you, that you traveled while you were in Japan, because I, I remember when I was in Japan, I kept doing H hitchhiking trips around Japan, which was great. Great, but I never actually left Japan and it's been hard to travel since then to other parts of Asia and I should have taken it when I had the chance. But, um, and so let me ask you now about your legal practice. What, how, how do you explain what you do to an average person?
Speaker 0 00:06:14 So my law firm focuses mostly on employment based immigration, uh, in the realm of us immigration law. There's roughly speaking three categories. Uh, you can be involved with immigration law, either as an asylum or refugee. And that's obviously someone who is fleeing their home country, um, due to a fear for their, for their life. You can also be involved with us immigration law, through a family based system. So that's, if you, if you marry someone who is a us citizen or a green card, uh, or, uh, you are the son, daughter, brother, sister of, of an American citizen or green card holder. And then there's the employment based system, which is what I focus on at my firm. And that is someone who works for a company or owns their own company, uh, and is interested in working in the us either on a temporary limited basis or more extended period through a green card, which ultimately has a, an option for a pathway to citizenship. That's what someone's interested in.
Speaker 3 00:07:18 And how did you get into immigration law? So was it something like when you were a child, you always said, I wanna be an immigration lawyer.
Speaker 0 00:07:27 No. Cause it was not.
Speaker 3 00:07:29 I ended up being a bankruptcy lawyer and I know when I was a child, I never said, oh, I hope someday to be a bankruptcy lawyer.
Speaker 0 00:07:35 Yeah. It was not. Um, when, even before I, I went on the jet program and lived in Japan, I knew eventually I, I was pretty sure I wanted to come back to the United States and go to law school, which I did. But when I started law school, I really had no idea what type of law that I would end up practicing. Um, and I think that's quite common for many us law students. Uh, you get in there and you take a few courses and, uh, maybe you get a summer job with, with a firm or that focuses on a particular area of law and kind of life just leads you down a certain path. And that was kind of the case for me in my last year at law school, I took immigration law, thought it was a really, uh, interesting course was interested after law school in moving to Washington DC and, uh, working for the department of justice. And it just so happened that that year, um, the attorney General's honors program, which is the program through which the justice department hires people directly out of law school. They had a lot of slots for people in immigration law. And, uh, there's not actually many immigration or many law school students that have a lot of immigration law experience. And so I think that was one reason. I was, uh, fortunate enough to be able to hire be hired through that program and find a spot at the office of immigration litigation.
Speaker 3 00:08:57 And, and what did you like about when you said you took an immigration law course and you liked it, uh, and it, and you sort of followed that, that feeling. What, what did you like about immigration law?
Speaker 0 00:09:08 Uh, I liked that it was, it was, it was very, it was varied in that, as I said earlier, there were different categories, ASI refugee law that's family based was employment based. So there were a lot of different types of many practice areas within immigration law itself. And also just based on my experience, living in Japan, uh, when I was working there, I was obviously on a work visa. Um, I had experience filling out the paperwork initially and, and going to the, uh, Japanese embassy in DC for an interview to get my visa. And then when I was in Japan, I was there so long that I had to even extend that visa. So I had the experience of going down to the, the local immigration office, presenting my paperwork there, going through the interview there in, in Japanese and explaining why they needed to renew my, my teacher's visa. So based on that, uh, experience, I thought that, uh, you know, I, immigration law was very relatable to me. And also it gives you the opportunity. You know, a lot of, I think a lot of people when they go to immigration or when they go to law school, they, they find the idea of international law, you know, really appealing God. I think it'd be great to practice international law. They have no idea what that means, uh, or what that's gonna entail.
Speaker 3 00:10:24 You, you just described me in law school. Exactly. And then I learned that international law could mean working on wood chips in trade talks with Canada, the us for like 10 years. And, but all you're dealing with is wood chips.
Speaker 0 00:10:38 Right. I think I had a little bit of that as well in law school. Maybe I'll do international law, whatever that is, and I'll get into law school and I'll figure that out. But the neat thing about immigration law, uh, especially when you're doing well, I guess actually, no matter which many practice area you're doing it from, but it is certainly with employment based immigration law, it truly is international law. You are interacting with, uh, individuals who, uh, are currently living abroad and are seeking access to the United States, or they already have a visa here and they're looking to extend it or switch it to a different visa class. And so you're getting to meet people from all over the world, different cultures, uh, more than that, you're also getting to learn about their job that they did abroad and what they do in the United States. Cuz you have to learn about that. So you can explain to the us government why they qualify for the type of visa that you're applying for.
Speaker 3 00:11:34 And so when you were at the department of justice with the immigration division, what, what kind of work were you doing there? Can you tell us more about that?
Speaker 0 00:11:41 Yeah. So when I was at the department of justice, uh, office of immigration litigation, I had an appellate practice, which means I was, uh, handling cases on appeal. They had already gone before. Uh, these were asylum cases, mostly where someone had applied for asylum. They had had a hearing before an immigration judge, the immigration judge has had most likely determined that that person did not meet the legal standard for asylum. That person had then appealed that decision to an administrative body called the board of immigration appeals. And then they had appealed it one more time. So they had essentially usually been denied twice once by an immigration judge once by an administrative appeal board. And then they appealed a second time in the federal court of appeal. And at that point I would get the case. I would review the evidence that was presented to the immigration judge, the testimony, the documents, uh, I would review the immigration judge's decision, the reason why he or she determined that they weren't eligible under the legal standard.
Speaker 0 00:12:42 I would review the same, uh, documents that were presented before the administrative appeal. And then I would review their what's called their brief on appeal to the federal court of appeal. And based on that information, I would write my own brief and submit it for consideration to a federal judge. And most of the time I would say, um, seven or 80% of the time, the case was decided on the briefs, which means the judge just reviewed my brief and the opposing counsel's brief and made a decision whether, uh, the immigration judge and the administrative appellate board had made the correct determination under the law. And then in about 20% of the time, those cases would be scheduled for oral oral argument, which is when we would actually travel to the federal court of appeal that was handling the case and present oral argument, usually about a 10 to 15 minute presentation answer questions from the judge. Uh, and then the case would be decided late thereafter.
Speaker 3 00:13:39 Did you enjoy the oral argument?
Speaker 0 00:13:42 I did. It was, it was a lot of fun. It was challenging. It was nerve wracking. Um, but it was a really neat experience.
Speaker 3 00:13:49 And what did it mean if, if it was gonna go to oral argument, why, why would a judge have a case go to oral argument rather than on the briefs?
Speaker 0 00:13:58 Usually if a case was federal on the briefs, it was because it involved issues of law that were pretty well established, um, that the judge was not interested or did not feel they could deviate from, uh, the, the concept of legal precedence. Uh, if the case involved a novel issue of law, uh, often perhaps a novel issue of law within that circuit. Uh, maybe other circuit judges had decided an issue, but this particular circuit had not. And they wanted to get on the record, their opinion, uh, whether it was an agreement agreement with other court of appeals or if they wanted to be an outlier, that might be a reason why they take it could just be a case that the judge was particularly interested in, um, or if it was complicated and they wanted to be able to ask the, uh, both sides, questions that were perhaps not fleshed out, uh, enough in the briefs. Those are all possible reasons.
Speaker 3 00:14:57 And it, and it sounds like if you were writing a lot of briefs, you were doing a lot of writing in your, in your work at the department of justice, um, is your current work and the, in the law firm and business, uh, immigration, uh, similar in the kind or the amount of writing you do?
Speaker 0 00:15:14 I, yes, both in, you know, I think most practices of law involve a, a good bit of writing. Uh, when I was at the department of justice, we were writing appellate briefs. Those would normally be on average 20 to 30 pages where we were, uh, reciting the facts, the factual procedural history, um, outlining the applicable law and then applying those facts to the law in our argument sections, uh, and the employment based side. Uh, I also do litigation it's district court litigation. So I do write complaints and motions. Uh, those cases deal with, uh, visa applications that have been denied or delayed where the government has been sitting on them for months and months. And my client really needs an answer. So I do continue to litigate, but also we submit, we prepare and submit visa applications. And those also involve a lot of writing. They involve, um, uh, drafting letters for our clients that help our, our, our, I should say our company clients explain why they, and the, their perspective employee qualifies for a particular type of visa. And we also help our company clients, uh, gather the type of documentation to corroborate what they're saying in the letters that they're submitting.
Speaker 3 00:16:39 And when you were in law school, did you take a legal writing course?
Speaker 0 00:16:42 I did. Uh, most, I believe most law schools required to take legal writing. Mine certainly did. I took two semesters during my one oh year that was required at my school. I think some schools maybe only require one semester, but, uh, yeah, legal writing was, was a good foundation for everything that followed.
Speaker 3 00:17:00 Can you draw sort of a, a, a straight line or even a crooked line between what you learned in your legal writing course versus how you write now or is, or is it the kind of thing where you're like, whatever they taught me, throw all that away and now I gotta do it completely differently.
Speaker 0 00:17:15 No, absolutely. I mean, it was, it was foundational to everything that followed. Uh, <laugh>. I, I sometimes wish that when I was in legal writing and someone handed me the copy of the blue book and said, Hey, this is all about legal citation. And, and we're gonna learn some of this. I wish they had really impre impressed upon me from day one. This is really important stuff like this is not just something you learn for the class or for the test later on. Um, you know, of course I've, I've spent years learning that information. Um, but it was, it was kind of toward the end of my first semester that I was like, oh, this this stuff is really important. Uh, to at least the type of practice that I was planning to have. Um, so that, uh, citation aspect of the legal writing course was very important, but also just simple things like moving away from use, using the passive voice in your writing, um, the way arguments are structured, uh, in a very simple, straightforward, methodical, uh, linear method that those types of skills that were taught in the legal writing course have continued to be really important.
Speaker 3 00:18:25 It, it sounds like you might have been talking about Iraq. I R a C of
Speaker 0 00:18:30 Course. Yeah. There's that's is that
Speaker 3 00:18:31 Yeah. Is that something that you, that you feel like you still use issue rule app application or analysis and conclusion
Speaker 0 00:18:38 When I was writing, uh, appellate briefs, certainly. I mean, that, that's a really common way to, to craft legal writing questions. There are legal arguments in, in a brief, um, in my it's funny. Yeah. I probably do it intuitively in my work now and just don't think about it. Uh, but yeah, I think that that's still can be a very persuasive way to write.
Speaker 3 00:19:04 And, and you mentioned the blue book before, um, for, for any listeners who are not familiar with the blue book, could you, could you briefly explain what that is?
Speaker 0 00:19:14 So the blue book is a, is a legal writing style guide that at least when I was in law school, uh, 15 odd years ago was the gold standard for legal writing for law review work. Um, and for many people in their professional lives, I, I still use it because that's what I was taught on in, in the years, since maybe there's been some, some, uh, alternative types of legal writing, uh, regimes that have popped up. I'm not, I'm not really sure, but, uh, but it basically is the guide for, uh, so that for, for uniform citation to legal authorities. So if you are citing to a court case, a statute, a regulation, a website, uh, congressional testimony, all of these things, you can look it up in the blue book and it explains, uh, sometimes not as, um, thoroughly or easy to understand as, as, as I wish it would, but it explains how you're supposed to write those citations in your legal writing. So that the reader who is also familiar with the blue book can access those, uh, legal authorities either through an online service like west law or Lexus, or going to a law library and, and looking them up.
Speaker 3 00:20:36 And, and what happens if you make a mistake in your work, if you, if you write a site, a citation incorrectly or use the wrong style, does it, does it come up? Does do judges notice that,
Speaker 0 00:20:48 Uh, of course, I mean, I'm sure judges notice, notice it just like they would notice any sort of simple mistake. Uh, it's probably more noticeable if it, if it's a mistake that you've repeated in your legal writing in, in, in a brief, it shows that you don't maybe fully understand that concept. Uh, the nice thing about when I was working at the department of justice and when I'm working, where I'm working now is you're never filing anything that, that you are the only person who's looked at. If you write it, if you draft it, you always have someone else look at it to give you feedback, not only on the SI the style, but also just the substance of what you're writing. So that helps, especially if the person who's reviewing it is a, a more seasoned experience writer. And that's what I benefited from a lot when I was at the department of justice, uh, my supervisor had been there, uh, at least 15 years at that point and was a great legal writer himself. So I was able to become much better just in reviewing the drafts and the, and the markups that he had done on, on my, my initial attempts.
Speaker 3 00:21:54 Oh, that's, that's a great point. That part of the way you became a good writer is by getting feedback over the years from, from a senior person who's yeah. Commenting on your writing and making changes.
Speaker 0 00:22:07 That's, it's always good to find a mentor and another great way. And I think this applies when you're learning a foreign language as well is to read, uh, to read good source material, uh, whether, uh, in a foreign language, that's probably something that you're interested in. So you're more likely to do it, to study it, uh, in legal, in the legal writing con context. I think it's important to read, uh, court opinions by judges that you consider or that others consider to be good writers.
Speaker 3 00:22:38 That's a great point. That is, you're talking about extensive reading, and you're just talking about principles of learning, how to write well, and, and, um, you in inadvertently are, are preaching ideas that I'm a big fan of. So thank you for that.
Speaker 0 00:22:51 And I think too, when you're doing legal writing, uh, persuasive legal writing that you're presenting presenting to a judge in particular, that judge has, has also become very familiar with the style of writing that is done in court opinions. And so, uh, perhaps, uh, intuitively your writing is therefore hopefully more persuasive when they're reading it, uh, because it's, it's being presented to them in a way that is very familiar and, and hopefully persuasive.
Speaker 3 00:23:20 And can I ask you, uh, so can you tell us a little bit about, uh, the kind of work you did today or in the last few days? What's, what's something that you've been working on recently?
Speaker 0 00:23:33 So we do a lot of, we do a lot of temporary employment based visas. Um, one neat thing about in employment based immigration law is a client will come to you and they explain that their situation, whether that client is a company or an individual, they explain their goal. What, what they want. Like I have this person who works for me in Brazil. They're a brilliant engineer. I want to bring them to the United States because this person is skilled in a process that our us based company doesn't doesn't do I wanna bring him or her here so that they can teach that skill to us workers. And so you're, you're like, okay, I, I understand my client's goal. Then I wanna learn a little bit about this employee. What's their educational background, their experience. What's this engineering process that I've been hearing about, does the company, or the individual want to be here long to long term short term?
Speaker 0 00:24:32 Are they just coming one off to teach this information for a month? Do they need to be here for two or three years? Does this person want to stay here for much longer and possibly become a citizen? Do they want to bring their family, all this information you take in? And then you look at the law and the types of visas options that are available, and each of those visas have their own individual requirements. And so you start looking for what are the options. Sometimes it's queer, there's only one good option available, but a lot of times there's two or three options. And then you go back to the company or the individual and say, look, these are your options. Here are the pluses and minuses of each one. One might be a more onerous process. One might be for a shorter time period. So I, it, it's almost like gamification of law, as far as how you are putting these different inputs together, to come up with a set of proposals that you can then turn around and give your client.
Speaker 0 00:25:33 So I've done a lot of calls this week with clients about those types of, uh, situations and, and what might be the best fit. Um, we also just, we prepared a lot of different types of visa cases this week. Sometimes you present, or you, you, you file a, a visa application and the government comes back with what's called a request for evidence and RFE. And that's where kind of in the employment based side, the legal writing kind of kicks up a notch because, uh, at that stage, the government wants that information because they're a little skeptical as to whether the person and the company are eligible for this type of visa. And you know, that if you don't do a good job, the government could, could deny your application. And that's particularly, uh, important if someone's applying for an extension of their visa, because that person's already here, they have a life. And so when you're doing the request for evidence, you're, uh, collecting additional documentation to support your previous legal arguments that you've presented in the initial petition, uh, and you're also trying to head off any potential reasons that you think they might be considering denying the application for
Speaker 3 00:26:54 Now. Uh, a lot of our listeners are LLM students or future LM students at us law schools. Um, do you have any perspectives or, or, or insights you can share about the visa process for students who wanna stay in the us after they finish their LLM program?
Speaker 0 00:27:14 Sure. We, at my law firm, we, we do a lot of work with students that are wanting to do that transition. Uh, thankfully in the United States to, to get the F student visa is usually fairly straightforward. And once the student is accepted to a program, whether it's undergraduate or graduate, the schools have a have their own office. And within the administration, that's really good about getting them that F visa, however, uh, when it's time for that student to move on, uh, there's not always that, uh, that good help structure in place. And sometimes they don't know what the next step should be. So we love helping students answer that question. Um, one great option that's available to them under us. Immigration law is what is called O P T uh, optional practical training. Uh, and that is something that they can get a lot of assistance with from their university, uh, for, for a lot of different types of coursework, I should say, non stem, science technology.
Speaker 0 00:28:19 Wait, what is it? Science, technology, engineering, math, I think, uh, non stem courses usually get one year of O P T, which is one year work authorization, uh, at a job related to their field of study. Uh, if you studied in a stem field, um, you get more than one year, you get two years. And so what's nice about that. O P T stem O P T timeframe is it allows them that much more a year, two years to figure out what might be their longer, longer term course of action. Um, for a lot of students that is gonna be, we, we advise it's always better when you're working on O P T or stem O P T work for an employer who ideally, uh, has experience sponsoring employees, uh, especially former, uh, employees that were formerly employed through the O P T stem O P T process, cuz they're more likely to be open to the process of sponsoring an employee.
Speaker 0 00:29:23 Um, and then a lot of times we, we work if you, if you are employed by someone on O P T St O B T if, and you have a year, especially if you have a year, but even if you have two years, you need to start thinking really early about what that next step is gonna be. And, and that most likely means speaking with an immigration attorney about the best options for you. A lot of times we advise students to, uh, ha talk with your employer about sponsoring them in the H one B lottery that occurs every spring. But again, that's something that you need to talk with your employer early about because there are deadlines involved as to when the application can be submitted or the lottery application can be submitted. If you're submitted in the lottery, then there's a timeframe for preparing the application, submitting it. Uh, but those are all things that you can discuss with an immigration attorney.
Speaker 3 00:30:17 Thanks. That's really, really helpful for, uh, a lot of our listeners. Um, one other question, how, how do you get clients or how do clients come to you or find you, do they, do they find Nick Harling? Do they find the Garing goal? Immigration law firm?
Speaker 0 00:30:34 Uh, a little bit of both, uh, from the law firm point of view, the law firm has been around for, uh, more than 20 years. So there are a lot of long term clients and those clients continue to use us, uh, because we, we work really hard and do a good job for them. They, uh, give recommendations to their friends and coworkers, other companies, that sort of thing. Uh, I've had, uh, you know, this former jets that, that know what I do and have email me immigration questions. So it's a, it's a wide range of, of sources.
Speaker 3 00:31:10 Do you have any advice that you like to give to others thinking about immigration law or advice that's been given to you that's been particularly helpful?
Speaker 0 00:31:19 I, I think immigration law is a, is a great practice area. It's, it's complicated. Um, but it's very rewarding. You're having, uh, you have the ability to have a direct, positive impact on people's lives. Um, and so I, I just think that that it's a good option for people, especially people that are familiar and interested in other cultures. Um, it's been a good fit for me.
Speaker 3 00:31:46 I, I think I wish that I had listened to this interview back when I was starting law school. I think I might have found real international law and I might have, I might have enjoyed my legal practice a little bit more. Uh, anyway, thank you so much, Nick, for, for joining us. Um, thanks for taking the time to talk with me today. Um, we are going to include relevant links from this episode in the show notes. Um, uh, Nick, can we include a link to your LinkedIn profile or to your,
Speaker 0 00:32:15 To your
Speaker 3 00:32:16 Absolutely profile on the website?
Speaker 0 00:32:17 Absolutely. And I'm, I'm happy to answer, uh, anyone's questions that they have about, uh, their current or potential future us immigration situation.
Speaker 3 00:32:27 Great. Um, and I wanna remind our listeners to subscribe to the us law essentials podcast at apple, Stitcher, Spotify Himalaya, or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can also listen to all episodes on us law, essentials.com. Uh, and if you have any questions, comments, reactions, ideas, et cetera. We always love hearing from our listeners. You can contact us by email at Daniel, us law, essentials.com or through the us law essentials Facebook group or LinkedIn group. Uh, and I'm gonna end with a, a lawyer joke that, that, uh, and you can tell me afterwards if you've heard this one before <laugh>, um, I, I just came across this one yesterday and, and appreciated it and shared it with some students. Um, there was a, a, a lawyer, a paralegal and a secretary, and they decided to go out to lunch together one day and they are, um, they're out sitting in a park, eating lunch, and one of them notices a, a, a, like a, an oil lamp, and one of them takes it and they, they look at it and looks just like what you'd expect, you know, a genie kind of lamp.
Speaker 3 00:33:29 And they rub it and a genie actually comes out and the genie says, uh, as the genie of this bottle, I'm gonna grant, I can grant you each one, wish for a total of three wishes. And, um, the secretary says, oh, wow, that's great. I, I wish I was in Hawaii surfing right now. And poof, the genie causes the secretary to be in Hawaii surfing. And then the paralegal says, oh, I wish I was in the Caribbean C sailing on a yacht. And poof, the paralegal disappears and is sailing in the Caribbean on a yacht. And then the genie turns to the lawyer and says, there's one more wish. What would you like? And the lawyer kind of frowns and says, I want both of them back in my office after, after lunch today, <laugh>, that's kind of a tame lawyer joke. <laugh> um, anyway, have you heard that one before? I have not. I have not. Oh, good. Okay. So that was, that was the first lawyer joke challenge. Uh, we'll try it again in future episodes at the end of the episode. Um, so anyway, thanks again, Nick for joining us. My pleasure. Thank you. And thanks everybody to listening to us law essentials law and language podcast, and to Pablo and our other listeners stay essential.
