Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the U S law essentials law and language podcast, the legal English podcast for non-native English speakers. That helps you improve your English, listening, improve your legal English vocabulary and build your knowledge of American legal culture.
Speaker 3 00:00:18 Welcome to the U S law essentials law and language podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Edelson. And today we're continuing our series of interviews with multilingual lawyers. Our guest today is Marco Giordano from Italy. Marco is a trainee lawyer with baker Tilly in Italy, and he's also earning a master's in law from Louisa Guido Carlo university in Rome. Marco is also a graduate of the Lonza law school in Rome. He was awarded a global law fellows program scholarship in 2019. And through that scholarship, he studied for six months in the United States at St. John's university school of law in New York city. He's also audited courses at Fordham law school. And he's our guest today. How are you Marco?
Speaker 2 00:01:13 Hello, Danielle. Thank you for inviting me. And, uh, I'm very, very happy. And, uh, I am, I'm honored to be here today.
Speaker 3 00:01:22 Well, it's great. It's great to have you with us Marco. So right now it's, uh, it's it's around 9:00 PM in Italy.
Speaker 2 00:01:30 Yes, it is. Yes, it is.
Speaker 3 00:01:32 Okay. Well, thanks for taking the time to, to talk to us. And when we were speaking before the interview began, you said you were, you were still working until nine o'clock at night, is that right?
Speaker 2 00:01:46 Yeah, it was a, was just, uh, solving couple of issues for, uh, for a case, uh, that, uh, I'm involved with. Uh, uh, so it required, uh, it required an extensive, uh, analysis of the documents. So I was, uh, was still, uh, I was still on the job yet.
Speaker 3 00:02:05 Okay. You're, you're, you're working hard as a, as the 2021 ends. We're recording this right before, right before the new year starts. Can you tell us, what does it take to get admitted as an attorney in Italy?
Speaker 2 00:02:25 Uh, yes. Um, the first step is to be to graduate in law, and then there is our acquire period of 18 months of trainership that you have to, you have to, um, you have to go to a law firm in which a lawyer follow you, and you have to follow some cases, but, but in started the cases and also following the court, but you are now able to discuss the case in front of the you, because you are, you're not still a lawyer, but you do all the, uh, all the things that a lawyer Dawes in, uh, for this, for the job. So basically after these 18 months, you are, uh, you are allegeable for, uh, to be admitted to the bar. And, uh, after an exit to exit is actually one or a low, and the second one needs another oral, but they, they changed them. Let's say the settings of the exit because of the COVID because before, before a 2020, the exam was, uh, basically, uh, a Brita and exam for the first part and an oral exam for the second part. So right now, currently is a oral for the first bar, then, uh, oral for the second part.
Speaker 3 00:04:00 I see. And once you pass that oral bar examination and you've already completed the, and you've, and you've completed the 18 months of training, then you can be admitted as an attorney in Italy.
Speaker 2 00:04:15 Yes. Yes.
Speaker 3 00:04:16 You're currently earning a master's degree in law, in addition to your work as a trainee lawyer, is that correct?
Speaker 2 00:04:25 Yeah, it is. It is. Um, um, I'm specializing in white collar crimes or, uh, uh, better if you will, um, corporate crimes and they, something is something very interesting for me because, um, these, these, my Sarah allows me to combine two of my passions. One is a criminal law and the other one is corporate law. Uh, this is a field very new for, for the Italian legal system, because we didn't have the, what is the corporate liability, uh, in our tradition was something new that came up with European union and with, with a new sense of, uh, of justice in the system. So for me, this field is especially now in this particular moment where the globalization is a key point, uh, in where companies, they play a very big role in our, in our society. It's important to understand how they, how they be, how they act and how they, uh, commit crimes, because sometimes it happens. And these, these particular sectors is in you because our, our criminal code, our criminal tradition is founded on the person and the behavior of the pers. So the problem that this, the company could not be liable under our constitution for criminal charges, because of, because of our tradition, our principles, uh, into the criminal system.
Speaker 3 00:06:15 But now, um, Italy has legislation that can impose criminal liability on the corporate entity to
Speaker 2 00:06:24 Exactly since since 2001, we have dues decree that, um, that basically set up all the, all the norms for, for which you, a company can be liable and establish a new principle of liability that it's called. It's called like a, it's like a culpability, it's an organizational culpability.
Speaker 3 00:07:02 So this new legislation that imposes corporate criminal liability, is it being used in Italy?
Speaker 2 00:07:10 Yes, yes. We have to distinguish geographically because we have to look at the companies and in some, in some areas of Italy, they're legistlative decree, it's no use so much because the companies, they don't have the economic value, or they cannot commit that those crimes that the legislative decree embraced. So what I'm saying is that in the north, for example, me land, you have a lore of, of, uh, of proceedings involve the companies. Uh, in Rome, you have a lot of proceedings of all the companies in the south. You it's very, it's, it's not so common, especially, um, where I came from. So basically what you see is dead companies that operates internationally, even nationally are more, uh, let's say, under the spotlight of, uh, of the, of these, uh, Logility of decree.
Speaker 3 00:08:26 So is the, is this law being imposed more in the Northern areas of Italy because that's where the larger corporations are?
Speaker 2 00:08:38 Uh, let's say that partially is true. Um, it says that in the companies that the sides of the companies matter in the fan, the impact of the company matters. So we can say that proceedings like, like that. So involving a corporate liability, my own town, they're very rarely, but if you move up from Rome to the north, companies are more likely to be involved in this type of a proceedings, but also you have to look in specific areas, um, in Italy where you have, uh, I don't know, facilities or industries that operates in certain, in certain fields. And, uh, if you look it up, there are, there are very famous proceedings regarding this type of, uh, this type of, um, let's say, uh, liability.
Speaker 3 00:09:50 I see. And so when you came to the United States to St. John's where you also focusing on criminal and corporate law?
Speaker 2 00:10:02 Yes. Yes, it was. Uh, um, in fact, I, I follow it to two courses there. One was criminal proceeding and the other one was constitutional law to understand the approach of a common law country to those types of issues. And even to understand better the criminal proceeding and investigation behind a criminal proceeding, uh, to see how, how the, um, the proceedings evolves and in a way that you can understand how to prevent crimes or how to prevent any investigation. And it is, uh, it is a very, very, very relevant.
Speaker 3 00:10:55 I see. And so were you comparing the, both the substance and the procedure, um, of criminal law between, between the United States and Italy or other civil law jurisdictions?
Speaker 2 00:11:11 Yes, I combine, um, I combined and I, I did, uh, let's say a comparison, um, between Italy United States with a particular focus on the right console and how is important to, to have a console into the criminal proceeding and always important to understand what a deck accuses are. And, uh, and I think that the crucial part, the crucial part is between the pretrial and, and the investigation there, it's critical. It's a critical zone in which you can understand how the proceeding will go. And this, I believe this is a, an analysis that can be that valuable even for, uh, not only for person, but even for, uh, for a company involved. I don't know if fraud or Belzer meant.
Speaker 3 00:12:23 So you are comparing the, the right to counsel at the pre-trial stage in the United States. And in, and in Italy,
Speaker 2 00:12:32 I come, I compared the way a calm, a low country versus a super low country approach to, to a criminal proceeding. And what are the principles beyond the criminal proceeding? What are the rights of the person or in these cases, the owner, the company involved in the mirror,
Speaker 2 00:13:00 And I, for darn reason, what, for that reason, what really, really, um, took my attention was the fact that the corporate liability was something already inside the day come a loss system was a ready, ready day, or the precarious liability. Was there something established in the civil law and especially in Italy was something new because we basically, we, we funded our system on the famous, sent the famous sentence, uh, from the Roman law that was such, he had us delinquent and a boldness. That means the companies cannot commit crimes. And there was something, something solid that our system embraced since 2001 until 2001. And the break point was 2001 because there was established, established the corporate liability. So until 2001, the word, the word, some case law about it, and there were some issues about it, but it wasn't a law that establish a corporate liability expenses, batteries.
Speaker 3 00:14:36 Ah, I see. Okay. And that, and the, the change to the law, the, the, the reason for this change to the law was because of the European union.
Speaker 2 00:14:48 Let's say that, um, the, the, the PA is it's true because European union, um, was the first push bod in Italy. Some, um, some, uh, outdoors, even some lawyers, some judges they understand the problem is beyond, um, beyond the scap and the problem beyond bigger companies that they were, and they weren't liable for certain crimes. And we had to use story from, from the seventies, eighties, where not only companies, but also banks, um, committed some crimes. And the low was the low was certainly FOC is on the person, not on the organization at all.
Speaker 3 00:15:59 So now that you're starting this new position at baker Tilly, um, are you going to be specializing in a particular field?
Speaker 2 00:16:09 Um, I am, um, yeah, I was specializing in, uh, Y cord cries, but in, um, even if in, um, let's say in a, in a prevention ways, it's more like compliance, uh, to, to prevent the proceedings, but I also am involved. I am, uh, I will be involved in, uh, every day deal deals off the company, like M an MNA or, um, um, or a compliance in general, but let's say that my, my field will be, uh, will be on this particular matter.
Speaker 3 00:16:57 That's really exciting. Um, so you're going to be able to work exactly where your passion lies with both, uh, corporate law and criminal law.
Speaker 2 00:17:04 Yes. Yes. And especially that, uh, one of the things that I liked the most is the fact like I can work, I can work in English. Um, I can work on, uh, an international on an international field with different clients. And, uh, so, um, I will, I will, I will try to, to also develop more knowledge on the drafting of contracts in a foreign language. So this is, uh, this is a good opportunity for me,
Speaker 3 00:17:43 Th that that's terrific. I was going to ask you, so it sounds like you're going to be using English a lot, this position.
Speaker 2 00:17:50 Yes, yes. We was something, it was something that, um, capture my attention English and I cultivated a, since I was, uh, I was a child for that reason, 2008, I went to dabbling to, uh, to understand better the language. And then my focus, my, my goal during that during the, my school of law was to study in the United States to understand that the judicial system, to understand how to use the language in the appropriate way, how to discuss a case, uh, in front of a foreign judge and how to think as a, as an American lawyer,
Speaker 3 00:18:37 What do you find to be the most helpful strategy to develop your legal English skills?
Speaker 2 00:18:48 I believe too. I believe that what helped me was the fact that I, I read a lot and I tried to, I tried to, to speak, to understand the language, but also the use of the, of the words I read a lot about, uh, about, uh, criminal criminal proceedings there, criminal tries to keep criminal trials, uh, like for example, they all G O J Simpson trial. Uh, so I was always curious about those, those, those, um, those aspects of, uh, of the language.
Speaker 3 00:19:31 So w uh, what did you read D were you reading newspaper articles or w or some other source,
Speaker 2 00:19:38 Uh, newspaper articles, books, or even cases, even cases, and, uh, um, actually, um, um, actually my, my, um, I, I read a lot about, about the OJ Simpson case it through, through, uh, through the book of one of these he's a lawyer and, uh, or for exemplary reading, breathing cases or opening statements of the case was really, really, really helpful. And, uh, for me was interesting to,
Speaker 3 00:20:20 Oh, that's great. So you would, you would read the, um, the, the opening statements, and that was how you built up a lot of legal English vocabulary.
Speaker 2 00:20:30 You asked the closest statements statements to the closing argument, uh, to, and even, even, uh, the cross examination. There was the part that, uh, really, uh, preload me because it was a part of, you really understand how to present a question to a person and you, and how you present that question, determines the way the witness will, will answer. So you have to be careful how to present the question. Why is the witness, has he understands your, what did you want to ear? And, uh, you can be, you can be in troubles.
Speaker 3 00:21:13 Oh, that's really interesting. Yeah, that's a really good point. You know, um, they say if you're a criminal lawyer, um, or you're, if you're a lawyer at a trial, don't ever ask a question, if you don't already know the answer.
Speaker 2 00:21:31 Exactly. Exactly. I assisted through my period of almost two years, a lot of cases, a lot of trials of organized crime, and one thing that you always find our witness or people that, uh, that they call it, the whistle blow on somebody else. So that's very critical moment for, for a lawyer, because when you cross examine you cross examine that person, you have to be very, very careful. Okay.
Speaker 3 00:22:10 Oh, that's interesting. Did you attend any trials in the United States while you were, while you were attending law school here?
Speaker 2 00:22:19 Um, um, one was the further federal building, uh, was involved in, was a case about fraud. Uh, and, uh, it was an interesting one, but I have to be honest. One of the most interesting one that I attended in United States was one case about diets and that it was a civil trial, but help me, help me to understand, um, some aspects of the criminal proceeding, because, because it was interesting how, how, uh, because it was about an auction, how the auction Warrick had back then and how some, um, some, uh, other subjects get into, into the trial, even if it's a civil, civil proceeding,
Speaker 3 00:23:16 It's sometimes even in a civil case, there can be matters that have criminal implications.
Speaker 4 00:23:24 So what was the best advice you ever received for studying law?
Speaker 2 00:23:28 Probably, probably the best advice was did you have to look for the details? You cannot, you cannot deal with a case if you don't grasp every detail of the case, because if you don't know the case perfectly, you won't be able to, to deal with matter. You wouldn't be thinking about thinking of, so you have to, you have to be aware that you need a lot of effort to understand the case, each wards, each document, to be able to deal with issues that you, you didn't think
Speaker 3 00:24:26 That's a really good point. If you don't know the details, then you don't know what you might be missing.
Speaker 2 00:24:31 Yes. Because, because the trial is very different from, from, uh, a negotiation or, or let's say a mediation that it comes out of the court, the trial is something that shocks you in the way that you have to, you have to be ready to understand the issue. And even if you don't, if you are not prepared for it, you have to deal with it. And this something that, uh, I believe is one of the most important thing in law in general, because if you know, what, what can you, what can be, what can happen in the trial somehow you can prevent, or at least you can understand some moves in order to prevent the criminal proceedings or whatever proceeding it is to happen. And it is, was my, my view. It is my view. Um, of course, for, for my, for my field, for, for a company that is involved in, uh, in a proceeding, if you understand how the proceeding will work, you, you have a better chances to avoid a proceeding or to try to find another way to solve, solve the matter.
Speaker 3 00:26:01 That's really, that's really a great, great advice. And I'm sure that's something that's going to be really helpful, helpful for you as you start your, your legal career, uh, at baker, Tilly. Thank you very much, Marco.
Speaker 2 00:26:15 Thank you, Daniel. And, uh, it was, it was a privilege and honor to be, to be here today.
