Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 You're listening to the U S law essentials law and language podcast, the legal English podcast for non-native English speakers that helps you improve your English, listening, improve your legal English vocabulary and build your knowledge of American legal culture.
Speaker 1 00:00:25 Hey, welcome to the U S law Central's law and language podcast. I'm Daniel Edelson and I'm Steven Horowitz.
Speaker 0 00:00:32 We're so happy that you're with us. And today's episode is part of the what's new in the legal news series. And it's Steve's turn today. So Steve what'd, you got what's new in the news.
Speaker 2 00:00:45 Um, okay. Here's the headline Kim Kardashians says she failed the baby bar exam, and this is from above the law.com.
Speaker 0 00:00:57 Wait, hang on a second. Kim Kardashian, she wants to become a lawyer. Is this for real?
Speaker 2 00:01:05 Yeah. Do you know, do you know who Kim Kardashian is? I know
Speaker 0 00:01:08 The name. I know she's sort of famous for being famous, her pictures everywhere. Who is she?
Speaker 2 00:01:16 Uh, that's all. I was going to say. She's famous for being famous. That's about all I really know about her. And I know there's a TV show called keeping up with the Kardashians, which is apparently sort of relevant to the story because it was on that show or on a there's a preview of the show that, that I think E online, the entertainment channel, um, got a, a little hold of and leaked out, um, where she says that she failed the baby bar exam. Okay. I
Speaker 0 00:01:45 Think everyone knows what the bar exam is, but this is different. This is the baby bar exam, right? The baby bar exam.
Speaker 2 00:01:53 This is not the guard, right? There's the, there's the bar exam. And then there's something it's just in California called the baby bar exam. And it's actually the official name is the first year law students examination. Okay, then.
Speaker 0 00:02:09 So what is the baby bar or the first year law school students examination?
Speaker 2 00:02:17 It's, it's part of, it's a way to be eligible to sit for the California state bar exam without attending, uh, an accredited law school. So the traditional way that you take the, uh, the bar exam in California is you go to a law school, maybe you go to Stanford law school or UC Berkeley or something else. Um, but California also has a bunch of unaccredited law schools, which I hadn't really realized that, but that's a, that's a thing. Um, and so you can, if you go to one, so one way you can do this is you can go to an unaccredited law. Um, and you can, after the first year of that law program, you take the baby bar exam. You
Speaker 0 00:03:07 Keep referring to these accredited and unaccredited law schools. What's the difference between an accredited law school and under-credited law school. Oh
Speaker 2 00:03:16 Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. So there's, there's an association called the American bar association, the ABA. And one of the things that the ABA does is it has certain standards that all law schools have to follow or meet. Um, and, uh, so the ABA does the accrediting. They give the S the stamp of approval to law schools to say, you are an accredited law school, and they make the rules on, on bar passage and things like that, or rules that affect bar passage. Each state's bar association has its ha has its own rules about the bar exam and, and, and bar passage. Um, but the ABA sets, the standard is the national organization that sets the standard for, um, for law schools and, and whether a law school is considered an acceptable accredited law school or not.
Speaker 0 00:04:16 Okay. So if I'm in California and I'm not one of these unaccredited law schools after my first year of law school, I have to take this baby bar exam, or is it an option for me? Something I can just choose to do.
Speaker 2 00:04:30 I think you kind of have to, I think you can wait. Um, you don't have to take it after the first year, but I think there's within the first year, uh, following your first year of law school, you have to take it within three years. So most people do it after the first year of their law program. Um, and then if you pass that, then you can continue going on to your subsequent years of study and then you're eligible, even though you didn't, then you're eligible to sit and take the California bar exam when you're done with your law program, even though it's not an accredited, an ABA accredited law school. So
Speaker 0 00:05:10 Why is the baby bar exam called the baby bar exam?
Speaker 2 00:05:16 Uh, because it's like a pre-test, it's something you it's, it's something you have to pass before. Also, it's only a one day exam. Most bar exams in most states are two or three days and they, they, they involve a lot more, um, there's a lot more material to cover. There's a lot more work. They take a lot more time. Um, and I should note California is unique. It's the only state, um, that offers a baby bar exam or this kind of system, this kind of way to become a lawyer and pass the bar and take the bar, uh, without going to an accredited law school, California is unique in that way.
Speaker 0 00:05:55 So you can become a lawyer after attending an unaccredited law school, but before you can take the bar exam after you finished your first year at the unaccredited university, you have to take this baby box.
Speaker 2 00:06:10 Yes. And actually that's not even how Kim Kardashian has been approaching this process. There's a, there's also one other thing you can do. Um, instead of going to a law school, an unaccredited law school, I think they call them registered law schools. A registered law school means essentially means an unaccredited law school. Okay. Um, instead of that, instead of going to a registered law school, um, you can work as an apprentice for a lawyer for four years. And that lawyer has, I'm sorry, you said an apprentice. An apprentice.
Speaker 0 00:06:49 Wow. Because like when, when you say apprentice, that makes me think of like, um, Benjamin Franklin or every Lincoln.
Speaker 2 00:06:59 Oh, I thought you were going to say, it makes you think of the TV show with Donald Trump.
Speaker 0 00:07:04 That's even better. Maybe that's what really, what I should have thought of.
Speaker 2 00:07:08 I mean, that's the kind of an apprenticeship also. I mean, that's, that's about people being an apprentice, but we're talking, you're thinking more specifically of, of apprenticeships in the, in the field of law.
Speaker 0 00:07:22 Yeah. Well, I mean, it used to be right that you could be an apprentice to learn to be anything. I mean, I'm thinking of like, when people used to learn to be a blacksmith, I mean, I don't know anything about blacksmithing, but I think he learned how to be a blacksmith as an apprentice. I mean, and the image in my mind is you have this guy at an apron and there's a young kid next to him in a smaller apron standing next to him and that young kid, that's the apprentice.
Speaker 2 00:07:51 That's kind of funny because that's exactly what comes into my mind too. There must've been some sort of way we were conditioned or taught in schools to, to picture that.
Speaker 0 00:08:00 Yeah, there must've been some story we read or something we learned about one of the founding fathers where there's somebody who wants to learn something like the art of blacksmithing. So he becomes an apprentice.
Speaker 2 00:08:16 Yeah. There must be something in the, in that, either that or in the water. Anyway, wait, hang on. I'm
Speaker 0 00:08:23 Sorry. I just want to interrupt you for a second. Cause I want to tell you something that I just don't believe. I mean, is it really the case that Kim Kardashian is apprenticing to become a lawyer? I mean, is she in an office somewhere with a bunch of lawyers in which she is the apprentice, lawyer learning how to be a lawyer?
Speaker 2 00:08:44 Yeah. I'm not clear on that at all. I don't know what's going on. I think we'll have to, maybe we'll have to actually watch the show, keeping up the Kardashians to find out. And I, I would kind of prefer not to do that, but maybe you maybe I'll assign you to do that. Would you? You're okay with that. I'm actually
Speaker 0 00:09:04 Not comfortable doing that and it's not because I'm snobby or anything like that. It's because there's really other dumb things that I should watch. And maybe if I watch those, I'll get made fun of less anyway, but I apologize. I interrupted you. So please do continue with this important story.
Speaker 2 00:09:23 Oh yeah. I was going to say in the old days, this is how people, this is exactly how people became lawyers. There were, there were no bar exams. Uh, I think the first ever bar exam was like 1885 in Massachusetts or something. Um, uh, but originally you, you did an apprenticeship with a lawyer. There was, I think Abraham Lincoln to become a lawyer. He just had to get a, um, a certificate from the local court certifying his good morale in his good moral character. Um, and that was it. So it was kind of like a club, like, you know, you had to know people, but then I think the, um, the legal profession wanted to create a more sort of a fair way or a way to, in a way to sort of ensure quality of the legal profession so that not just anybody can do it. Um, oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Perhaps it was also to sort of be able to maintain their pricing. It's sort of, it's a way of keeping sometimes, sometimes associations, like that could be a way of keeping out competition. So there's not too much competition. If everybody can be a lawyer, it's harder to make a living. Huh. That's
Speaker 0 00:10:34 Interesting. Cause I think one of the things that the ABA does is it monitors law schools and a law school can actually get into trouble if a certain percentage of its graduates don't pass the bar exam.
Speaker 2 00:10:50 Yeah. Yeah. So there's, there's definitely an interest in passing the bar exam. Now there's a whole separate, um, question and issue, which, um, maybe it's for another episode about, um, what the bar exam even measures or tests, is it a good measure of who should become a lawyer? Because I don't know about you, but when I, all the things I studied for the bar exam, I didn't actually use them when I practiced law. Yeah. That's
Speaker 0 00:11:19 A good point. And I think a lot of things just academically where it doesn't necessarily have any application to real life is, is something that's been studied where the fact that you go to school and you graduate, it's a way of signaling or providing information to future employers that, well, I'm the type of person that you can give a task to, or you can ask to do something and I'm the type of person to go ahead and accomplish it. So I'm the type of person to work hard.
Speaker 2 00:12:02 Yeah. It just, it requires you to, to, to, uh, focus very hard for a, for a period of time and invest your time in doing this. So you're not just doing this by accident or you're not just doing this because you're not sure what else to do. Well sometimes
Speaker 0 00:12:20 When we use the term baby, it can be insulting like, oh, that's babyish, right?
Speaker 3 00:12:26 Oh yeah, you're right. But baby bar exam,
Speaker 0 00:12:28 I'm not really sure that that's insulting. And then I was thinking about other times when we use that term baby, like when we say baby steps, as in take small steps towards achieving a goal. I mean, that sounds more positive to me. What do you think? And
Speaker 2 00:12:48 You're right. Yeah. In that sense, baby could have more of a positive connotation, whereas in a lot of situations, unless you're talking about an actual baby, when you use it in a descriptive or a metaphorical sense, it can have a negative connotation. When does it feel positive or negative to you in this situation for the baby bar?
Speaker 0 00:13:09 To me, it doesn't really sound disparaging. It doesn't necessarily, it doesn't necessarily sound complimentary, but maybe it's slightly positive in the sense that, okay, you're taking a step towards achieving towards passing the bar exam. After you take this smaller exam while you attend this unaccredited law school, what do you think?
Speaker 2 00:13:35 Um, it feels kind of neutral to me. I mean, I think there's something in the alliteration, the BB sound baby bar that just sort of works, but at the same time, it is kind of diminutive, diminutive, meaning sort of make something feel smaller and less important. Um, yeah. So I don't, I'm not sure what the, what I think the connotation is. I mean, I think in, in one sense there's a connotation that you're not taking the real bar. I mean, eventually you would have to, um, it, it may take on a negative sense because apparently only about 20% of test takers passed the baby bar. And um, I mean, California is always, is all, is already, California is already notorious for having a very difficult bar exam compared to other states. But, um, I mean, 20% is, is extremely low compared to any bar exam in the United States.
Speaker 2 00:14:42 Um, that could be because the people who are likely to take it might be representative of a, of a group or a demographic that is not going to do as well on this kind of exam. Or, uh, some people have speculated that the, the test is made intentionally very hard to discourage people from taking this route. That is the, the, the California bar association or whoever's in charge of this whole process and, and creates this whole process would prefer that people go to accredited law schools. They don't want this, this backdoor way to happen. Um, and maybe the backdoor way did happen. So making the test hard could be a way of sort of keeping the door mostly closed. Um, but I don't know. I don't have enough background knowledge on this to know if one or the other interpretation is even accurate.
Speaker 0 00:15:39 For me, it's really hard to focus on those other issues because I'm so very desperately concerned about Kim Kardashians future. What will she do? She doesn't pass.
Speaker 2 00:15:48 Yeah, really? I don't know. I don't know how she's going to survive. I I'm, I think, I think not just you and I, but all, any listeners to this podcast I think are probably very concerned right now. And we apologize for creating additional stress for you.
Speaker 0 00:16:05 And of course, something else we could think about doing is creating one of the most least popular reality shows ever in which we focus on Kim Kardashian and her efforts to pass the baby bar exam. We just follow her around as she's preparing to take the exam.
Speaker 2 00:16:22 I think that definitely. Yeah. I think that could definitely be the least successful reality show ever. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:16:30 I think the only way that you could do it would be to have a bunch of eighties music montages, where she's studying furiously and typing things on her computer or writing things down on a piece of paper
Speaker 2 00:16:44 Or like in, in Rocky and the movie Rocky where, you know, maybe she could be like punching meat in a, in a, in a warehouse, a big piece of meat and running, running through the streets of her city up to the art museum. Yeah. And
Speaker 0 00:16:59 People are following her and sh shouting Latin phrases behind her to cheer her on like relatives a lot door. Yeah. Maybe
Speaker 2 00:17:06 We shouldn't, maybe we shouldn't be sharing this idea. Dan, maybe this is something we should keep for ourselves. And, uh, anyway, so, so there, so today's today's event is Kim Kardashians failing the bar, I guess it creates some additional drama for the show and gives all of us a reason to potentially if not, watch it at least want to check and find out what happened and if she ever does pass it. Yeah. This is probably
Speaker 0 00:17:33 Not something that I'll be doing a YouTube video on, especially because if we did the video on this, it would almost certainly give away all of our great moneymaking ideas on the Kim Kardashians, baby bar reality show. All right. So Steve, thank you so much. That really was interesting. And it was a pleasure speaking with you.
Speaker 2 00:17:53 It's always fun talking with you about these momentous legal events. Dan,
Speaker 0 00:17:58 Thank you so much. And we'll talk to you soon. Bye.
