Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 You're listening to the U S law essentials law and language podcast, the legal English podcast for non-native English speakers that helps you improve your English, listening, improve your legal English vocabulary, and to build your knowledge of American legal culture. All the honorable the Supreme court do the U S law essentials law and language podcast. My name's Daniel Edelson. My name is Steven Horowitz. Hey Steven. So this is our what's new in the news series in which we take turns asking each other about a news event. So Steve you're on today.
Speaker 1 00:00:41 What's new. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:00:43 Thanks, Dan. Um, well I picked an article from the American bar associations website, the ABA journal.com in their daily news section that was titled, uh, these factors help predict whether a law grad will pass the bar on the first or second try study set.
Speaker 0 00:01:02 Wait, wait. So wait, hang with him. So the headline was these, these what? These factors. Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 00:01:10 Help predict whether a law grad like a law graduate, uh, will pass the bar on the first or second try. Oh, so
Speaker 0 00:01:20 The article is saying, these are the factors that you can use to predict whether somebody graduating from law school is going to be able to pass the bar.
Speaker 2 00:01:28 Yeah, that's what it seems to be. Dan, did you take the bar exam?
Speaker 0 00:01:33 I took two. I took New York and New Jersey.
Speaker 2 00:01:36 And did you pass on your first try?
Speaker 0 00:01:39 I passed on the first try for both. Um, and I was convinced that I failed on both. Yeah. So there you go. How many parts have you done?
Speaker 2 00:01:48 Uh, I took the New York bar and I passed it my first try. Um, uh, but so, so this article interests me because anything that tries to predict who will or will not pass a big test, like the bar exam, it feels kind of magical to me. Like there's a crystal ball and, and the study was done by a non-profit organization called access Lex that focuses on helping law students succeed. And particularly students who might need more support. For example, students who are the first in their families to go to loss, to go to college or law school, um, might struggle more in law school. I might struggle to pass the bar and access. Lex is an organization that, that among other things wants to help those students succeed. So one of the interesting takeaways from this study is that students who have larger household sizes that is they live with more family members or other people are less likely to pass the bar exam on the first trip. Wait a second.
Speaker 0 00:02:51 So if you have more brothers and sisters, that means you're less likely to be,
Speaker 2 00:02:57 Well, not just having brothers or sisters, but more brothers and sisters. And you live with them. If you live with your parents and some siblings or, you know, grandparents, aunts, and uncles, the more family members, actually, it didn't say family members, the more, the more members in your household, the less likely we're to pass on your first try. So Dan, when you took your bar exams, what was your living situation? Oh,
Speaker 0 00:03:25 That's interesting. Okay. So the New York bar, I was, it was just me. I was, I was on my own. Um, sometimes I would study with my girlfriend, but it was, it was really just, it was really just me the second one, which was the New Jersey bar. By that point, that point I had my wife and my son and we actually, we had just been moving, um, from overseas. So we came back to the U S so I was, the living situation was kind of funny. So sometimes I'll be living with even more people. So maybe that means I had a higher risk of, uh, not passing it. How many people were you living with when you took the, the New York? I
Speaker 2 00:04:06 Had just graduated from duke down in Durham, North Carolina, and with a, with a couple friends, we rented a house for the summer and I just stayed there and studied. So I was in a household with two other people, but they were friends who were studying for the bar. So it, it, I'm not sure that that's what, um, the access Lex study had in mind when they talked about, uh, a household. I, they didn't say family members, but I assume it was something more like family members. So I don't know that I fit that cap.
Speaker 0 00:04:40 Okay. So they must make some sort of correlation between why it would be that more people living in your household leads to poor outcomes on the bar of what's what's there what's their number. They didn't, there
Speaker 2 00:04:55 Was also a, there was also a comment that, um, those who had other employment that were working to assign a job, um, or, or some or any other job, uh, had lower pass rates on the first try. So there's, there's some implication that there's, that a larger household somehow interferes with studying. Um, I would think that if you're living in a, in a family situation, there's more obligations, there's more shared space and shared time, and it might be harder to, to focus and organize your studying in the intensive way you need to do to prepare for the bar exam. Now for broader context there, I think there's a couple of things going on with bar exams and the law schools that might be helpful context. Um, and one thing I've noticed is, um, I think there's been a democratization of the law school student population that is there's more students from more different backgrounds going to law school these days than there were in the past.
Speaker 2 00:06:00 I think law school in the past was more of a, of a narrower or more limited demographic. Um, um, and the, the other thing going on is that the, uh, the ABA, the American bar association has standards that law schools must meet, uh, to be an accredited law school. And one of those standards is that, uh, some percentage of graduates from a law school must pass the bar within five years. I forget if the numbers 70% or 80% or 60%, but whatever it is, there's some number that have to pass. Um, so the idea is that if not enough, graduates of a law school are passing the bar, then the law school is not doing a good job of teaching its students and its students are not getting their money's worth. And law school is expensive. Um, this isn't such a big deal for say top 20 law schools like Harvard or Yale or Georgetown or others, because nearly all of their graduates pass with no problems.
Speaker 2 00:07:02 You know, they're not, there's not a general need for additional support to pass the bar exam, but for a lot of law schools, this is a big deal. Um, you know, more law schools are accepting students who might be less familiar with, or, or less comfortable in the traditional academic environment of American law school. Um, and so most law schools now provide significant support to help students learn how to study and learn better to, uh, in order to improve their outcomes on the bar exam. It's not just important for the student to pass the bar exam. Now the law schools have an interest in their students passing the bar exam as well, or a very direct interest. Um, Dan, when you studied for the bar, did you get any help from your law school?
Speaker 0 00:07:48 I don't want to say I didn't get any help, but I didn't get any help. And it wasn't as though it sounds negative, but it's, I wasn't really expecting any help from the law school. And this is a while ago. So the standard model for legal education then was, well, we teach you to think like a lawyer, but you sort of have to study a lot of the fundamentals on your own. So I wasn't really expecting help from my law school and I didn't get any, but I certainly don't. Don't blame the law school for that. How about you? Yeah. Oh, and
Speaker 2 00:08:27 I have the same experience. There was no expectation that, that my law school was going to help me, um, with bar study. That was something you did on your own. Um, but I think things have changed since we were in law school. We were in law school in the, I was in the nineties that when you were in law school. And I think now there's a much more developed, um, academic support, uh, community of, of professionals and professors who work with students, um, to, to help them succeed in law school to help them learn, to be better learners. Um, and there's a better appreciation for, for the needs of this new generation of law school
Speaker 0 00:09:09 Students. It's a good point. And one thing that occurred to me as you discussed this article was there's so much data out there now. And I would think that if you're a law school student, that this type of information would be interesting to you because you could probably get all sorts of information about things that I might do, which will make it statistically likely for me to succeed and things that I might do that would make it statistically, statistically less likely. Now, obviously I'm not suggesting that anyone get rid of family members as part of their bar preparation, but it would certainly be something that a student would want to keep in mind like, okay, I know that more students with larger families have difficulty passing the bar. I've got a lot of people living in my house. I need to consider that as I prepare for the bar exam.
Speaker 2 00:10:01 And, and I think it's also interesting from a cross-cultural perspective because in other countries, the bar exam doesn't work this way in, in the us, every state has its own bar exam. Um, so you take a bar exam for the state, but, but also in theory, an unlimited number of people can pass the bar exam. You just have to meet a certain score and you pass and you can become a lawyer. Whereas in a lot of other countries, there is a, a limit. There's a, there's a fixed number of people who can pass the bar, which makes it, I think, a lot more, um, intense and competitive.
Speaker 0 00:10:41 That's a good point. Steve, one thing I wanted to ask you is does the study there anything about international students or LLM students?
Speaker 2 00:10:48 Uh, it doesn't, it, it really doesn't get into that at all. And there's nothing even about non native English speakers. Um, and I think that's because, uh, that the passing rates for LLM students are not included in the numbers that the ABA looks at, um, when, when reviewing law schools for accreditation. I see. Um, but, but obviously it's a challenge for LLM students to pass the bar. Um, Dan, have you ever worked with any LLM students to help them with studying for the bar? Yeah, I've
Speaker 0 00:11:19 Worked with several, I've worked, um, with students who are often trying to take the, the New York bar, which is a popular bar for LLM students. So I tutor students in terms of their bar exam preparation essay, writing substantive law. You certainly worked with a number of LLM students too, right? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:11:43 I, I designed a, uh, a sort of ongoing non-credit course to help, um, LLM students work on specifically on the essays and developing, um, sort of efficient writing strategies and building, writing fluency. Um, because it seemed like for a lot of the LLM students, they knew the material, they were able to learn the material, but writing quickly was hard. So being able to write, to have a, an, an, uh, an organized writing strategy for writing faster and more efficiently, um, was important for them. So that's something that I really worked on. It,
Speaker 0 00:12:26 That's a, that's a, that's a good point. And I think also something that I know we both enjoy and value is working with students before it's time to take the bar. So while the students are still studying in law school, I think there's so many skills that you can develop that often have a lot more long lasting significance than just passing the bar exam.
Speaker 2 00:12:52 Yeah. A lot of it is strategies and things that you have to practice over time and building up, um, building up strings and chunks of English language that you can use, uh, fluently to connect to your ideas. And those are things that take time to develop
Speaker 0 00:13:09 Good point. And Steve, thanks so much for talking about that article.
Speaker 2 00:13:12 Yeah. Thanks. It's a, it's a really interesting article to talk about. Great.
Speaker 0 00:13:16 And thank you for listening to the U S law essentials long language podcast. We look forward to talking to you again soon. Bye.
