Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the U S law essentials law and language podcast, the legal English podcast for non-native English speakers that helps you improve your English, listening, improve your legal English vocabulary and build your knowledge of American legal culture.
Speaker 1 00:00:19 Welcome to us law essentials law and language podcast. I'm your host, Steven Horowitz. Uh, and before we get started, is there a topic, a case, something in the legal news you'd like to hear us talk about in a future episode or perhaps a multi-lingual lawyer or cross cultural law professional, you think we should interview? You can let us know by
[email protected] or also by posting in the U S law central Spacebook or LinkedIn group. We want to talk about what you want to hear, and if you're interested, there are likely many other people who are also interested in the same thing. Plus we'll mention your name in the podcast. So please do connect with us. Today's episode continues our series of interviews with multi-lingual lawyers and today's guest is Yi song, a Chinese lawyer based in Washington, DC, who works for a Beijing based real estate development company. Ye is also a colleague of mine at Georgetown law, where she is an adjunct professor of law and teaches a course on legal writing to LLM students. Additionally, she is a graduate of Georgetown law's LLM program and completed her undergraduate studies at Beijing foreign studies university. And on top of that, she is also a fan of this podcast and told me she never imagined she would actually hear her own voice on here. Is that right?
Speaker 2 00:01:53 Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 00:01:55 Welcome. It's so nice to finally have you as a guest.
Speaker 2 00:01:59 Thank you so much, Steven, for having me.
Speaker 1 00:02:02 I also want to note that I had not realized you are a Kim Kardashian super fan, which I know because you sent me a link yesterday, her recent Twitter post in which she announced that she had finally passed the baby bar in California. And we had done an episode about Kim Kardashians and passing the bar exam, uh, early on in this podcast series. So thank you so much for that.
Speaker 2 00:02:28 Thank you. Thank you for mentioning it. I don't know if I will call myself a Kim Kobayashi and super fan, but she did came up on my Twitter like four minutes after she tweeted that California.
Speaker 1 00:02:46 Yeah, it sounds like a real challenge. So she did it. Okay. So let me ask you, what, what bars have you passed in the U S and, and did you celebrate like Kim Kardashians?
Speaker 2 00:02:59 Uh, I passed a New York bar in 2010, and since I also practice in Seattle Washington, so I'm licensed to practice in Washington
Speaker 1 00:03:11 State. So I, I have the bar in New York and in Washington state. And, uh, I didn't celebrate as can, because back then there wasn't Twitter to celebrate. So publicly. Did you, did you take the New York bar and the Washington state bar at the same time? Like the same year
Speaker 2 00:03:32 I took the New York bar after I graduated from Georgetown law. Um, and, um, I have a practice in New York for about five years. So when I moved to Seattle, I waked into the Washington bar, but there's still like a mini exam you need to take before you are officially admitted. And it is a really long winded process. They conducted their due diligence and look into my background in China, reach out to my law school in China, you know, talked to my employer back in China. So he's pretty intense process.
Speaker 1 00:04:06 Wow. Okay. Um, and let's see. And you mentioned to me that you enjoy listening to this podcast. So I figured I should ask you, um, is there, what do you like about it or is there something about it that you find helpful?
Speaker 2 00:04:22 Yes. I love your podcast podcast. Um, I think it's great that it shed light on the stories of multi-lingual lawyers. We're not a very visible group in the law, I would say, but of course with, um, you know, services that your podcast provided, there's more and more that you hear about us. Um, but it's just interesting to hear what our multi-lingual lawyers are up to. What, what is their legal practice is like we don't have a lot of representations in the legal industry, except for, I guess, uh, Amal Clooney, uh, who has a master of law degree and who is practicing, who is very visible in the public realm other than her. Um, I guess we will be hearing more and more of us from your podcast.
Speaker 1 00:05:08 Yeah, yeah. Hopefully this starts a trend and there's more representation. And also now that you're here, is there anyone out there that you want to say hello to,
Speaker 2 00:05:19 Oh man. So many, I shout out to everybody from the legal English center at Georgia law.
Speaker 1 00:05:28 Okay. Well, it's, it's, it's so nice to have you here. And then, uh, um, now that you're famous on the podcast, how, how do you plan to handle all the pressures of your new Kim Kardashians starts following you on your Twitter feed?
Speaker 2 00:05:44 I know I'm waiting for that name sitting on my hand, waiting for that day. So hit me on Twitter.
Speaker 1 00:05:50 All right. You got that cam if you're listening. Okay. So now let me get back to some of the other questions I wanted to ask you. What, um, what countries have you lived in, in your life?
Speaker 2 00:06:03 So I I'm from China. I was born and raised in Beijing. China, um, spent, uh, two thirds of my life in, in China. And I moved to the United States in my early twenties for law school. So primarily lived in China, us and visited, um, other places in Asia, Europe. And I do have a relative in Japan, so I visited her as a child in the summer.
Speaker 1 00:06:29 Oh, interesting. So you've sort of been all over, um, in, in, in one way, you know, in different ways. And, and what languages do you speak or what languages have you studied in your life?
Speaker 2 00:06:41 Uh, my native languages, Mandarin Chinese and I have studied in Hong Kong. So at one point I, uh, you know, speak and understand Cantonese, uh, which is very different from Mandarin Chinese. And I have learned a little bit Japanese, um, but didn't get that far and I have learned a French. Um, I have studied, um, French, uh, when I was in New York at Allianz. Paul says, so
Speaker 1 00:07:11 How, how has your, how has your French now?
Speaker 2 00:07:14 Not good, not good. I did not make my teachers proud.
Speaker 1 00:07:22 And, oh, and let me ask you a question now. Um, so you, now, you, you now seem pretty fluent in English. If you are asked to do a math problem in English, or if you asked to do a math problem, can you do it in your head in English, or does your mind go back to, uh, Mandarin?
Speaker 2 00:07:42 Hmm, interesting. Um, I'm not good at math to begin with, so I'm not excited to do a math problem in any language.
Speaker 1 00:07:53 If I say, well, what's, what's four plus five,
Speaker 2 00:08:00 I guess I would do it in English. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:08:03 If I said, what is 32 minus 12?
Speaker 2 00:08:07 That's 20. Is it 2020, I guess, I guess English. Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 00:08:13 As I always think about like, you know, you really sort of get command of a language when you, when you have dreams in that language. But, but I had a dream in Japanese when I lived in Japan and I, but then I realized at another point that it's, if you do math in that language, in your head, then that's like a real, uh, I think that's a real sign of sort of full fluency. Um, so that's why I was thinking about that. Um, so how did, so when you were growing up in China, did you speak English?
Speaker 2 00:08:49 Well, I, I learned English as all school children do in China. We started elementary school just to learn English, um, as a child and they teach, uh, British English. Um, I think that at least to me, they're trying to speak British. Um, but I really started to learn when I was a teenager just being exposed to American pop culture, um, you know, listening to songs and watching American movies.
Speaker 1 00:09:20 So that's, so you sort of got into the language, not just through school studies, but through a genuine interest.
Speaker 2 00:09:27 Yeah. Kind of learned the language organically because school is like all about memorizing vocabularies and study grammar is boring, you know, for, for a kid. Um, but if you develop your own interest to follow this, um, role model sort of, and have a crush on this person, the singer, the celebrity, you know, is much a greater motivation to learn.
Speaker 1 00:09:53 So, so when you came over to do your LLM degree at Georgetown, uh, what was your level of English at that point? How would you describe it?
Speaker 2 00:10:04 I guess at that, at that point, I would say I had a learning, uh, for 20 years or so, and I was a lawyer in China and I've always been, uh, learning, you know, um, go to after school program to study English and talk to other native speakers. So it's, yeah, probably, um, just like any language learner who I've been learning and speaking the language for 20 years.
Speaker 1 00:10:34 And then do you feel like, since, since you, since you came over to do your LLM degree, has your English, um, improve or I'm guessing your English has improved a lot and been doing the degree, and then you've been working here and living here in the U S um, what, and if I'm wrong, you can, if you think your English has gotten worse, you can tell me that what's helped you. What, if anything, has helped you improve your English through this period since you arrived in the U S
Speaker 2 00:11:04 I certainly hope that it didn't get worse. Um, but, um, I hope to speaking fully immersed in the language, you know, in all aspects of the linguistic acquisition, writing, listening, speaking, reading, um, and all of that, not just, uh, about, um, the materials that you are exposed to in your law school, but none law books and materials helped me a lot.
Speaker 1 00:11:34 And then if it's okay, I want to ask you a little bit about your, your LLM experience. Um, what, what about it was helpful or what things did you, do you think you did right in your LLM experience? And what, if anything, do you think you might've done a little bit differently?
Speaker 2 00:11:51 Uh, I think primary interest for me is just, uh, is to learn English, to improve my English, which still today, give me an adrenaline rush. If I know that my English is improving. Um, so I kind of gravitate towards the language learning part of the experience when I was here for the degree. Um, you know, the back then the legal English program is just in his infancy, but are, you know, professor Hoffman was there. So I spent a lot of time at his office hour, just asking, how do I improve my English, not so much about law. Um, I feel like that learning the language and being a language learner is just who I am and just law practicing law is what I do. So about the experience itself. Um, just speaking generally exposed to, um, American life in, in law school and outside law school had the complete American experience is, uh, is, is very refreshing because before I arrived in the U S I also watch a lot of TVs and movies about the us. And a lot of them are not exactly other, a lot of them are misconstrued, misconstrued, uh, about the law. I remember I watched, um, like coming of age around the 2000, I watched, um, ally McBeal, like a lot of PD lawyers and, uh, legally blonde Elle woods, legally Yvonne
Speaker 1 00:13:29 Compare to your experience at Georgetown law school,
Speaker 2 00:13:33 Uh, is, uh, you know, nobody has that much time. No lawyers were lost. Student has that much time spent on social life. Of course, I was like, if my life, um, in law school was in a movie, it's going to be me sitting behind a desk at all times that very long shot of that.
Speaker 1 00:13:55 And then, um, is there anything you might've done differently in your, in your LLM career?
Speaker 2 00:14:02 Uh, I would say I will probably be less stressed out about, um, everything just, just more relaxed and, uh, try to try to interact more with my peers, because I was very stressed out about finals and exams and the bar exam and looking for jobs. They didn't spend a lot of time socializing. Um, I remember, um, they have a social sort of a like social calendar, a decent one, although there's not a lot on it, but one of them is called bar review. And I was so stressed out about, about the bar exam. I thought, oh, I need to sign up on it, everything about the bar. I need to be there. And as it turned out, it is literally a review of bars on your law school, like every single bar in the city that will go to bar. Everybody viewed reviews the bars.
Speaker 1 00:15:00 That's what we had that in. When I was in law school, I think it was from a bar review. It was Thursday nights and it was getting together at a bar. And did you go, and did you enjoy it?
Speaker 2 00:15:14 I went for the first gathering and immediately realized that it was now the bar review. I was after
Speaker 1 00:15:21 That sounds like great advice for, uh, for future LLM students, be careful of the term bar review. There's some, there's some word play going on there. Um, and then, and now, now you've been practicing as a lawyer in the U S for a while. Um, tell us about your, your legal practice now.
Speaker 2 00:15:42 Yes, I I'm my in-house counsel for a real estate company and the company is headquartered in Beijing and publicly listed in Hong Kong. So I work on a lot of cross border transactions. Uh, I manage the legal and risk aspect of the business operation in the United States deal with, um, just the usual operation of a real estate company, uh, acquisition financing, construction development purchase, and sales, and other things like since we are source of funds are from overseas. So there's a lot of, um, work on international taxations, offshore funds, structuring, you know, work with other tax Haven lawyers like Haven and BDI. Um, and, and, uh, our company is spacing Hong Kong. So there's a lot of, um, securities compliance work in Hong Kong.
Speaker 1 00:16:36 And it's interesting as you're talking about your practice, like how many different areas of law you, you are, you have a finger in, in your role as, as in-house counsel.
Speaker 2 00:16:48 Yeah, it is great fun. It's just like running a general practice is basically whatever the company it has encountered legally. I'm part of that.
Speaker 1 00:16:59 And, and how did you end up in this, in this role with this company? How did you find that job?
Speaker 2 00:17:06 Interesting story. So I worked in New York, um, in the corporate security side at the time there's a program called, um, immigrant investors program. So we raise capital for US-based entities, uh, overseas. And that program was, uh, predominantly, um, investors from China. So my background was what's useful to the farm. Um, and, uh, an ed five program was really in his heyday at a time that I was practicing. And after five years in New York, um, I was, uh, basically burned out is the long hours. And I was, um, I moved, um, to, to the Pacific Northwest, but with my husband and we, I was just looking for jobs, you know, trying to look into all the big tech companies. And one day I got a message from LinkedIn saying that we have this position opening, are you interested in is connected to your background and your practice. And it just sounds very sketchy. And, uh, and it's on LinkedIn, you know, you've got tons of message on LinkedIn every day. And I was thinking, it must be a scam, but I just reached out to the person and start talking and they set up interviews and, you know, as it turned out, it is not a scam. And that's, uh, that's, that's how I got my job. Yeah. They found me.
Speaker 1 00:18:34 What, what made you feel like it might be a scam? What, what types of things, what types of, uh, concrete for you getting a ride from?
Speaker 2 00:18:44 Because at the time, um, I got, other than that message, I also received like 10 other messages on LinkedIn, which I don't, you know, reach out where I don't call back. It just looks like either, you know, sales or you don't know what there were there about.
Speaker 1 00:19:03 Uh huh. So it's more because there's a lot of other messages. Why would this one be any different?
Speaker 2 00:19:09 I know.
Speaker 1 00:19:11 Um, and LinkedIn, so that that's really great. LinkedIn is a really terrific resource. Um, uh, and, and we can put your LinkedIn profile in the, in the show notes, if it's okay for people to connect with you.
Speaker 2 00:19:28 Um,
Speaker 1 00:19:29 So, and now what do you like about your work as a lawyer?
Speaker 2 00:19:35 Um, I like it, um, because it just, uh, it, it just exposed me to a great legal drama and great legal stories. I'm always gravitate towards a certain narrative, um, in life. So I guess law is a dispute and every legal dispute is a short story. Right? And people, you don't encounter people in these situations where the emotions is very heightened, if it is, um, mitigation is very, um, confrontational and people are literally upset. There's cannot be a win-win, you know, they're going to be a winner and a looser. And, but if it's transactional, it's a zero sum game. You know, if you're making more money, I'm making less and why, so people are fighting about it and the stake is high. So I like to go in there and observe how people would, um, respond in these situations. Is it because their, their personal history, their background or their cultural, cultural references? I just think it's overall very interesting.
Speaker 1 00:20:42 Oh, wow. So you really, so it's a place, it's a position for which you can observe a lot about human nature and the stories.
Speaker 2 00:20:49 Absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:20:51 That's interesting. I always like to avoid the conflict. Maybe that's why I stopped practicing law. I'm like, we all just work together. Um, I'm happy with that, but it takes a certain skill to be able to go into other people's con conflicts and keep your own cool. Keep your head and keep everything calm.
Speaker 2 00:21:14 Yeah, absolutely. I have friends who also feel that way because within my class I run a speaker series and it talked to lawyers who has, who is no longer practicing law. And, uh, to them, especially if they're, you know, in litigation, you know, it's very, very intense. It's very confrontational. And at many points it can get very personal because personal attack on the counselors or on the clients. But to me, I guess it's helpful for me to a step back, um, you know, as an observer. So I hope to observe these stories and write them down one day in some form.
Speaker 1 00:21:55 Yeah. Lawyers access to great stories of life. Now, what are speaking of stories? What are some of the challenges that you faced as a multi-lingual lawyer in the U S or in China?
Speaker 2 00:22:11 Great questions. Um, I think the, uh, there are several aspect of that. The first thing is probably just identity. There's simply not enough of us practicing in the us, which is why I think your podcast is great. You'd really shed light on this multi-lingual lawyers community. So going into meetings, uh, very often, you know, especially, um, in the initial meetings where people, you know, just start to work together, that there will be like, oh, you have a legal background. What will your role be in this transaction? So there, they don't know how to, where to place you. Like, you're, you're a lawyer. You're, you're, you know, part of the business group, um, and other challenging aspects, including the legal culture is very different. So my, I have one client now, which is the company and in the beginning, there's quite a steep learning curve for myself.
Speaker 2 00:23:12 And also for the company started doing business here in the United States. Uh, one constant complaint I got in early days is that, uh, why is this contract so long? Why is it 300 pages? You need to cut it down to 10 pages or, uh, why there are so many lawyers, you know, there's, uh, whether they will have like six lawyers just to just complete this transaction, you're a lawyer you're supposed to do everything. Uh, and another aspect, of course, the linguistic as that. Um, so there's a lot of, uh, the work about, uh, cross border transactions with multi-lingual legal. This, this course is translation, but not literally as translating people's words in another language, there's also a contact, a legal context to that translation. A reason, the example I encountered is that, um, the words affiliate and subsidiaries, um, it has specific meanings on in, in us, like affiliates means basically every company that I in the organizational chart, right.
Speaker 2 00:24:24 It can be directly or indirectly owned where you have to have common shareholders. It basically covers every entities, um, within your group or subsidiary, it could be, um, you know, directly only indirectly. Um, um, but in other jurisdictions it necessarily means that, so we are in a situation where, uh, they got very intense, you know, we're trying to explain to the U S facing investor, what is going on with Chinese real estate. There's just very drastic changes happening, uh, now. And, uh, if there's a point that the word is mistranslated, uh, not a lot of people realize that lead to very significant consequences, uh, because if the investor is asking, uh, are the Fili aids has any liability problems. If you've seen the alive, the affiliates only means that the subsidiaries that you have a hundred percent control, then you can give a very specific answer, but they're actually asking every single company within your organizational chart. So if you say something that, because based on your understanding of the meaning of the term, it could mean that you are giving false statement or misleading statement to the investors could get into great trouble. And it's challenging because none of these are taught in law school or, uh, even in practice, you know, people don't realize these until you encounter the problem that right in there in the meeting.
Speaker 1 00:26:06 Yeah. There's no, there's no course to teach you about this. You just have to figure it out when you get to it.
Speaker 2 00:26:12 No. Yeah. And another thing is just, um, the line is always not always clear to me for my role, right. Um, so as the in counsel, we basically run it in our practice within a company. If there's practice areas that I'm not a hundred percent comfortable where I need a second opinion, I would just get a outside counsel. And so that means that in meetings, if I'm present with the CEO or the CFO or people, or the business side, and, uh, I will do the translation of course, so they can communicate with the US-based developers and investors. But sometimes I will just say that I will speak in my capacity as his interpreter, not as counsel, but that is not always clear, right. Because sometimes if I'm speaking on a subject that I'm familiar with, I am giving advice. I am seeing as counsel. Um, so the, the line is sometimes blurry,
Speaker 1 00:27:14 Right? You're wearing two different hats and you can get confused as to your own identity, or it can be confusing for perhaps for the people that you're interacting with too
Speaker 2 00:27:24 Much. So
Speaker 1 00:27:26 That is tricky, but, but great experience to be having and a great way to see the stories as well.
Speaker 2 00:27:33 Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of stories, there's also like humor in these contexts, not necessarily translate. So for American partners and, um, you know, developers are very relaxed, uh, no matter how high the stakes are, they they're always, there's the ice breaker and they open with a joke if it is in person meeting. Uh, I I've seen this a million times, like, um, delicate, you know, the people from, from the Chinese side that would just no one laugh where they would just stare at them was a poker face. And it's just seems very awkward.
Speaker 1 00:28:09 Well, what did you recommend? What is it, should American lawyers avoid clients or companies avoid a joke to, as an icebreaker? Is there a better kind of icebreaker to do?
Speaker 2 00:28:20 Uh, I don't know. I think just, just be you that if they're exposed to these, you know, much, they have, they been exposed to the situation a lot, so they understand they understand the culture and just this happened recently. Um, it's a very intense negotiation and sayings are at the verge of collapse, but at the end, I guess everybody, everybody was on the same page again. So it's all great. And the, um, um, the CEO on the other side just says that while we, if we succeed, this project is going to be a doozy. And I was emailing put on the spot with, because everybody's staring at me. And, uh, the person from the Chinese side just said, uh, counsel, please translate. And I had no idea what doozy means in those compacts or just the word or just that word by itself. I've been studying English for 30 years and no one has ever used that expression was made before. Um, so I just make something up.
Speaker 1 00:29:30 I'm trying to think. What do you remember how you translated it?
Speaker 2 00:29:34 I translated into like, is there going to have a big party everybody's going to get drunk? And guys kind of know that the CEO is, is a, is a person who likes to have fun and he likes to joke about these things. Um, and then I would later told that there was, there will be no alcohol involved.
Speaker 1 00:29:53 Oh, wow. You had to, you had to sort out, you had to improv a little bit. You had to make it up as you go along. Yeah, that's great. Um, uh, now let me ask you about another, another aspect of being a multi-lingual lawyer. Um, you have in China, you speak Chinese and that's what you grew up with. And here you speak fluent English, but you have, uh, an accent. You have a little bit of an accent when you speak Chinese. Has that been an issue at all for you? Because the way that Americans or native English speakers might perceive a lawyer with an accent, does that ever come up?
Speaker 2 00:30:35 Um, I guess that comes up in the identity questions and it comes up, comes up in my practice, um, when I'm interacting with US-based lawyers sometimes, um, they will just because they don't know where to place you. They don't know what your role is. And as I said earlier, sometimes the role can get very confusing, you know, the line. So I don't blame them for not being able to ablate place me anywhere. Um, so I have things that happen to me, such as, um, you know, we lawyers, we will review documents and we will review contract and we will offer red lines. Right. It's just a part of the negotiation. Um, basically like negotiating writing, but I had lawyers who sent me just a first draft of their documents in PDF. And I was like, I was slightly, I found that slightly offensive. Like, in what way do you think we're going to agree a hundred percent to what you offer us here?
Speaker 2 00:31:45 You know, we will have to negotiate. We will redline. And of course I asked for a word doc, because that's what you were usually due to a lawyer and knowing that everything will get redlined. Right. Um, so that has happened. And the other situations, like when I was practicing in New York, we traveled to China a lot because a lot of our investors are Chinese space. And, you know, one meeting, uh, the partner was like, you should speak Chinese to the investors because that's your background. And they will feel more connected to you. And I did I speak Chinese to the investors, but the investors who are like, oh, we want a real American lawyer. You're not American lawyer because you're Chinese lawyer. And then the next meeting we learned, right. And the partner is that, okay, now you speak English and going to just offer them whatever advise American lawyer would offer them. And I did I speak English and the investor were like, oh, how long have you been living in the United States? Now? You don't speak Chinese anymore. I'm so pretentious, but not speaking to Chinese. Uh, so you really learned along the way. Um, so in the next meeting, I made a point that I was speak a little bit boats.
Speaker 1 00:33:04 Oh, that's a nice solution. Wow. But that's so tricky because you, you don't know how, you know, you go one way and then you, you know, that's wrong and you go the other way. And that seems wrong too. So it's, it's a, it's a really tricky, um, uh, surface to navigate.
Speaker 2 00:33:21 Um,
Speaker 1 00:33:23 So let me, let me ask you, uh, one last question. Um, is there any advice that someone has given you in your, in your, in life or in your legal career that you've appreciated or advice that you like to give to other young lawyers or young, uh, uh, international or multi-lingual lawyers
Speaker 2 00:33:43 I think is, um, like finding your way doesn't mean that you always know where you're going. I, as, um, as, as young lawyers, we're law students, we have this very, um, focused view on what we are gonna grow up to be like, I want to be a tax lawyer. I want to do international arbitration, or I want to practice public international law. But I would say just, you need to think about your interests more broadly. Uh, like, like for me, I like, I want to speak English. I want to keep improving me English. And, uh, I am gravitate towards stories to any career that will open up, open me up to those opportunities. I'm a hundred percent it's going to pursue it. And there's also a lot of like external criteria for young lawyers to be subject to, like, if you get into big law or earning a big salary and living in a big city, that's one measure measurement of success, but you really got to ask yourself, is that what you want? Um, this, you know, external assessment where criteria is not necessarily for everyone.
Speaker 1 00:34:55 Oh, thank you. That's really good perspective. I wish I had some of that perspective when I graduated from high school. Um, anyway, um, thank you so much. This has been a real doozy of an episode, which does not mean that we'll have a party and get drunk. It has been a really terrific, wonderful episode. Uh, and thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 00:35:19 Thank you so much, Steven. You sprayed fine.
Speaker 1 00:35:21 Okay. When will include any relevant links from this episode in the show notes, I want to remind our listeners to subscribe to the U S law essentials podcast on apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Himalaya, or wherever you get your podcasts, and can also listen to all episodes on us law, essentials.com. If you have any questions, comments, reactions, ideas, or anything else we always love hearing from our listeners. You can contact us by email at Daniel at us law, essentials.com or through the U S law Central's Facebook group or LinkedIn group. Thanks for listening to us law Central's law and language podcast and stay essential.
