Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Desire, commitment, stubbornness are much more, I would say, easier and rewarding experience and the insurers much faster. Uh,
Speaker 1 00:00:15 Honor United States,
Speaker 2 00:00:19 Welcome to the US Law Essentials Law and Language Podcast, the legal English podcast for non-native English speakers to help you improve your English listening, improve your legal English vocabulary, and build your knowledge of American legal culture. Hi, this is Daniel. And before we begin today's episode, I wanna remind you that US Law Essentials offers online courses in legal English and US law. Our courses are designed for international attorneys, law students, and translators. If you have any questions, please contact Daniel at Daniel us law essentials.com, and join us on Facebook and on LinkedIn. And now, today's episode,
Speaker 3 00:01:05 Welcome to US Law Essentials Law and Language Podcast. I'm your host, Steven Horowitz, and today we continue our series of interviews on the topic of multilingual lawyers with our special guest, Yaroslav Erek, who until October last year for seven and a half years, served as the Deputy Business Ombudsman for the Business Ombudsman Council in Ukraine, and who also has recently spent two months traveling in the US as a German Marshall Memorial Fellow. So, welcome Yaro sl, and thank you so much for joining this episode.
Speaker 0 00:01:39 Uh, thank you very much Steven for having me.
Speaker 3 00:01:43 Uh, Yaro SL also has a law degree from TA Chenko National University of Kyiv. Uh, studied as a scholar at the University of Alberta and has an L L M from McGill University in Montreal. Back in 2015, Yaroslav also became a fellow with the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators in London, uh, in the uk. I met Yara SL in January, 2023 on a Zoom webinar organized by the Harvard Club and the Professional Government Association of Ukraine, uh, titled Hard Talks about the future of Ukraine, in which Yara SL was interviewed by Artem Schoff of U S A I D, about his visit to the us, uh, as a German Marshall Memorial fellow. Uh, and I was struck by Yara Slough's Frank insights and observations on American political and legal culture in connection with Ukraine, uh, with its current struggle and its future goals. So, Yara sl, I'd like to start out asking you first, uh, how are you doing right now? And how are your, how is your family doing? I think you're in Slava Slovakia right now, but you'll be returning soon to Ukraine.
Speaker 0 00:02:57 Yes, for, for the time being. I got an opportunity to spend a few weeks here with my family, whom I haven't seen that much since the war started, and they moved in here and settled here. Uh, next week, indeed, I am heading back to ku.
Speaker 3 00:03:12 Um, and before we get into, uh, your work and career, I first just want to ask you about your cultural and language background, uh, as well as your language learning experience in your life. In other words, what languages do you speak and how and why did you come to learn those languages?
Speaker 0 00:03:33 Uh, well, uh, I was born in 1974 in, uh, little, uh, uh, transcript town called, uh, Raku, where the center of, uh, Europe is reportedly, uh, uh, located. There is a special, uh, to there that has been placed in, uh, mid 19th century, I believe. But, uh, during the time, so our Austral Hungarian empire, uh, uh, I mean, I'm quite proud about that. Uh, although I might admit that any, uh, uh, or all, uh, uh, central or eastern European nations, uh, would claim that they have the center of Europe, uh, their own territory. And, uh, you know, we might see those, uh, uh, Toms kind of scattered all over the region. But, uh, uh, yes, uh, I was, uh, born, uh, uh, in, in a, in a sort of a very small provincial mountain ish, uh, settings, uh, still, uh, during the times of the former Soviet Union, uh, which, uh, made me graduate, uh, from the secondary school there in 1991 with the command in, uh, uh, uh, knowledge of Ukrainian as my mother tongue and, uh, Russian, uh, because the latter was the inherent part of, uh, the Soviets academic circle in any school, uh, English was also taught.
Speaker 0 00:05:04 Uh, but, uh, it's either because I have not managed to, uh, come up with the necessary degree of, uh, flexibility with my mind or, uh, for some other purely pedagogical, uh, uh, reasons I cannot, uh, uh, with all due respect <laugh> to, uh, characterize myself as someone that had any, uh, decent command in English. Uh, at that time when I entered university, uh, in 1991, and I became a law student with the faculty, the most prestigious, uh, uh, Ukrainian, uh, uh, uh, university and law school, I was at that time pretty much the child of the transition that, uh, that, uh, part of the world, my part of the world was experiencing as, uh, I was admitted, um, still during the times of the former Soviet Union as kind of a Soviet student, but by the time when, and, and I started in, in, in September by receiving a so-called Stia, uh, uh, the, the, that's, you know, uh, the system of education where you are actually, uh, provided with a bit of a financial allowance called Stia, which was paid to, to, to, to all, uh, full-time students. But the, uh, thing was that, uh, although I was admitted and started during the Soviet Union, uh, in the middle of that academic year, I already became like a purely Ukrainian student and graduated from, uh, independent Ukraine. Uh, and, uh, uh, yes, uh, Steven, during my kind of an academic studies, uh, I have kind of gradually came to understanding that you have to learn and understand and have a good command in English in order to succeed in my profession, the way I imagined I want.
Speaker 3 00:07:03 So as you were growing up, would you say you spoke more in Russian or in Ukrainian, or both of them? All the time? Well,
Speaker 0 00:07:14 I guess that's the peculiar art of the region. Uh, I will definitely say that I spoke, uh, predominantly Ukrainian, but, uh, it would be not infrequent for me to read books in, uh, Russian, maybe because, uh, that the way how the humanitarian, uh, policy, uh, was being arranged in, uh, the former Soviet its Union by trying to induce people, young people to learn, uh, and becoming more, uh, uh, sort of, uh, comfortable with Russian, but through publishing the best books, not in Ukrainian, but rather in Russian, uh, language. So it was perhaps the element of the incentivization policy.
Speaker 3 00:07:57 And if I gave you a math problem to do right now in your head, which language do you think you would be most likely to do it in?
Speaker 0 00:08:07 Only Ukrainian. Yeah. Uh,
Speaker 3 00:08:09 You do it, you could do math in your head.
Speaker 0 00:08:11 Yeah, in my mind, my mind would produce, uh, uh, Ukrainian words. So they would come up first. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 3 00:08:19 Um, and then how did you learn English?
Speaker 0 00:08:25 Uh,
Speaker 3 00:08:25 Because you're speaking English with me right now, and you seem very comfortable with English, and you said yes when you were, when you were studying it in school, that was not, it was not something that was necessarily coming easy. At what point did you feel, and, and how did you learn English?
Speaker 0 00:08:40 Uh, at point when I saw, uh, uh, marginal very small portion of my classmates or folks that would be together in the same year with me, uh, uh, at the law school succeeding more, uh, than I was able to, I saw the, uh, knowledge of English as a perfect tool, uh, to be able to, uh, enjoy just a better, more diversified, uh, uh, student life by being able to travel abroad, uh, just to simply work student programs or something like that, which I never did, because it just never happened to me. I would probably never be eligible to qualify when it comes to, uh, language command. And maybe, uh, even when it comes to, uh, facilitating or participating in some, uh, uh, lawyering, uh, some, uh, uh, uh, uh, work that would be paid during those, uh, uh, years, uh, at far or better, uh, level than for those who, uh, wouldn't have come out in English.
Speaker 0 00:09:54 And don't forget that, uh, I have to record it. It was days when the Ukrainian legal market was still in a very much infantile state. There were no, uh, uh, uh, established, uh, roster of, uh, law firms. All this was still being forged. Uh, many of the legal assistants was organized on a pretty much ad hoc basis, and it was not infrequent that the actual legal law professors would be, uh, doing something that they would know nothing about, uh, when it comes to the area of law, substantial area, but only because of a small comment in English. They would still be hired. So the level of professional market ability that you would be able to gain and benefit from if at that time, so I'm talking about 19 91, 19 96, even seven, uh, uh, the level of marketability and profit that you could gain, uh, by having a certain, even minimum, uh, level in English was immense. It's not like that these days anymore.
Speaker 3 00:10:59 Uhhuh <affirmative>. So when you went to study in Canada, uh, how, what was that experience like where you were in a, in a primarily English language environment?
Speaker 0 00:11:11 Uh, it was, uh, what I have, uh, deserved, I guess, uh, uh, uh, it was like, uh, the, the story of a kid who dreamt to, uh, become like commando and then ended up in the actual training camp and realized how incredibly difficult and sometimes cruel this experience might be. But, uh, uh, in my case, this happened because I was proactive with the organization, with the NGO called Ukrainian Legal Foundation that was run, uh, among other things by the late, uh, uh, mother of, uh, uh, uh, uh, of, of, um, uh, uh, lady that used to be Canadian Minister of Foreign Affairs. Um, uh, pareland was, uh, the founding mother of that organization. And among other things, they promoted the idea of setting up, uh, the western type law school, uh, under the auspices of the, the Institute of International Relations and International Law. And they needed the roster of, uh, Ukrainian, uh, young legal, uh, scholars, professors.
Speaker 0 00:12:24 And in order to enable this roster to, to, to be created, they would, uh, uh, attract funds from the Canadian government. They would pick up folks like me. And I was pursuing PhD, the administrative law at that time, uh, with my university. And, uh, uh, since the, uh, uh, English was, uh, assessed, uh, we are institutional tofl, not the actual true one. Yeah, I guess I was placed in, uh, yeah, circumstances when the level of command they had at that time through self-education pro, mostly because, uh, uh, the level at my, uh, uh, at, at the law school where I was a student, what would still be sort of difficult for me to master, or the number of lessons would not be enough. At least I have not succeeded in, in, in, in there. But I've been stubborn enough to do a lot of self-education things, uh, reading and, uh, watching b bbc, uh, or something like that, which, uh, uh, was what you were supposed to arrange.
Speaker 0 00:13:26 It's not as easy as it is right now. You know, open up, uh, YouTube or, uh, uh, find some other pretty much accessible, uh, uh, means of, uh, self-education. The, uh, uh, desire, commitment, stubbornness are much more, I would say, easier and rewarding experience, and the insurers much faster, uh, outcome now due to the technological advancements that it was, uh, uh, in 1990, uh, uh, uh, four or five, uh, my, my best invention, one of them was, uh, and I did it manually. I would, uh, collect empty, uh, boxes, uh, uh, empty cigarette boxes from, uh, my older, uh, colleagues who have older students in the dormitory. I would take a piece of paper, I would cut it in a very small, uh, uh, pieces, and on the one side, I would write, uh, English work. And on the other side, I would manually write the Ukrainian version. And I would collect, I would say, I don't know, 20 or 30 of those boxes. And I would entertain myself in the evening, uh, or at my leisure time by looking at, uh, one of the versions and, uh, kind of letting my brain to memorize, uh, the words, uh, in all possible versions from Ukrainian to English and wise words. That was the technological advancement, uh, steering <laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:15:06 Right. I mean, I, I compare that now, I, I, I decided I, uh, to start learning Ukrainian a few months ago. So I just pull out Duolingo. Right. Much easier. Yes. So a million times easier and more convenient. And, and do you remember, was there a point where you felt, I think I'm, I think I'm fluent in English now, or did you have a dream in English at a certain point, and you said, Hey, I'm dreaming in English. This is pretty good.
Speaker 0 00:15:31 Yes. Uh, I mean, uh, uh, it seems, uh, Steven, that you are certainly, uh, not, uh, uh, interviewing someone like me for the first time in your life because, uh, you know, people's recollections, uh, when they're going through the same type of experience, they tend to repeat itself in a way. Yes. So, uh, in a nutshell, indeed, coming back to this experience that started straight by attending, uh, lessons, uh, uh, in, uh, classes, uh, with the law school, uh, at the University of Roberta, kind of being, uh, thrown from the bridge, uh, to the deep waters, you are in the first straw or whatever, you UI would bear the status of a special student, and I would be supposed to understand, uh, what the, uh, uh, professor is saying. And, uh, my problem was that it was not even the situation when I started between you and me, that I would, uh, like understand every word, every sentence, but I wouldn't, uh, understand the meaning.
Speaker 0 00:16:33 Yeah. I would've a substantial, uh, difficulty. My level, frankly, at that time when I started, was so poor that I couldn't decipher the beginning and the end of the sentences even, uh, well, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but it would happen sometimes. Uh, so that gradually but truly, uh, uh, you know, the, uh, passive, uh, uh, uh, baggage that I arrived with to Canada in terms of what I was doing stubbornly back in Ukraine for several years, somehow started to, in unveil itself, uh, like I have started to experience more elasticity with my, with my mind, with my air. And I'm gradually with the ability to express it, uh, through my, uh, speaking, uh, uh, uh, skills, the effect of the closed up, uh, environment where you are constantly exposed to the, uh, interchanging elements of what command in a certain language is listening, then speaking, then reading, and then again, uh, uh, sort of, uh, this, this, this cruel, uh, uh, in, in, in a, a way exposure when you couldn't sort of let yourself, uh, relax.
Speaker 0 00:17:53 I mean, at the end of the day, I was immediately in a very challenging acade academic circumstances, uh, an environment. I wasn't, uh, uh, privileged to spend a year or two working on the Canadian gas station, just occasionally talking to, you know, bypassers and drivers. It was immediately a, a very, uh, strong, uh, and demanding, uh, exposure that I had to cope with. What helped me, by the way, and this is something that I am offering as a, uh, advice to everyone who might have ended up in the same circumstances, what helped me a lot was to watch Canadian TV with captions.
Speaker 3 00:18:34 Hmm.
Speaker 0 00:18:35 So that you, uh, can sort of tie up, uh, the sound of sentences and, uh, uh, words with the way how, uh, they are written. And it was immensely, uh, uh, resourceful and, uh, uh, positive experience to me. But yes, then at some point in time when the second semester started, uh, it was not before fourth or fifth months of my stay in Canada, suddenly it was like a breakthrough. And, uh, I've started to see that that dreams, and that first dream may be in January or February, but not earlier than that, I would say. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:19:17 Huh. Yeah, I, I had a similar experience when I lived in Japan, and I, I remember I had a dream where there was a famous sumo wrestler, and he spoke to me in Japanese, and that was, that was when I realized that you sort of hit a breakthrough point. Um, let, let me shift now and ask you about your experience with the German Marshall Memorial Fellow program that, that brought you to the US for a couple months, this past fall. That must have been a very different experience than when you went, uh, when you first went to Canada, when you, uh, you know, just, just out of university.
Speaker 0 00:19:56 Uh, yes. Uh, it was in a totally different stage of my life, and effectively the, um, yeah, meaning, uh, of, uh, these two states were, uh, way too different. The, the, the first one was purely academic exercise aimed at enabling me to develop a, a course, a curriculum in comparative administrative law. That was the case, uh, of my first stay in Canada. A And by the way, uh, just wrapping up on your prior question, I can say that, uh, I finished my stay in Canada at that time by passing, uh, uh, by passing, uh, the actual tofl. Uh, so it was like a conclusive point. Uh, so after one academic year there, when it was still the old, uh, system of scores, I know that they have changed. At that time, it was 660 was the highest mark that the one could have earned. I think I showed something like 620 without, uh, sort of overstretching myself in, uh, doing some sort of a special, uh, um, drills, uh, to get myself prepared specifically for tofu, because people do that.
Speaker 0 00:21:14 I mean, I, I know some Asian students don't wanna emphasize on this too much, but I wouldn't say that they would speak better than I, probably much worse than me, but somehow they're just so incredibly talented. Uh, at least that was the phenomenon I was experiencing, that I observed at that time in passing, uh, uh, uh, awful with just flying colors, uh, 660, 650 at that time. It was not something unusual. I don't know where, where does that talent or special training would be coming from, but yeah, that's, that's what I, what I've seen, maybe the, the, the technique, uh, or the logistics or inner logic of the test might have changed in the meantime. But that's what I observed then. And, uh, uh, by the way, that enabled me two years later, reenter Canada, uh, on my own, uh, because the language command was already there, some recommendations from Canadian professors was already there.
Speaker 0 00:22:13 So McGill really wanted to help me on board as the part of their graduate program for international students. They even gave me the largest scholarship that they had for, for, for International Switch was, uh, good in terms of, uh, you know, financial aspects of my, my Graduat education in, in, in Canada. Uh, and yeah, uh, uh, that's, that's probably one, uh, of the first features that differ, uh, makes this 2, 2, 2 experiences different be because, uh, I would say that I have spent something like two and a half years of my life in Canada. And this experience was in the United States. I was not in the United States before, uh, there was only one short, uh, trip to my friends in DC for a week with my family already, uh, some, I dunno, it was like 10 years ago. Uh, and it was only DC and, uh, uh, I would travel once, uh, through, uh, uh, Atlanta on my way to the, uh, international Bar Association, uh, conference in Cancun as the representative of Europe when I was doing, um, graduate degree at Miguel.
Speaker 0 00:23:23 But apart from that, no, uh, sort of, uh, uh, other personal, uh, exposure, uh, to the United States, uh, as, as such and, uh, uh, in, in such a kinda advanced, uh, age or a mature age as 48, uh, which is, which is, uh, uh, uh, what I am old right now, uh, you know, you end up in the, uh, circumstances that yes, you have been pre-selected to represent Europe, uh, uh, as a Ukrainian, uh, uh, in the roster, uh, which is designed to, to, to attract, uh, uh, already immature, uh, professionals that have already succeeded poorly or partially in, uh, demonstrating certain leadership skills, um, and who know, uh, what Transitory Corporation is about and who could facilitate this, uh, uh, uh, on, uh, uh, one of its pillars, uh, either security or energy or, uh, civil society or economic development. Uh, I think because of my professional role that I used to occupy at that time, I kind of was wearing all of these hats more or less at the same time that that kind of attracted my, my candidacy.
Speaker 0 00:24:42 And yeah, you arrive, you are the part of the group comprising around 20 people from different countries, and you are obliged to travel around the United States at the expense of the program. And, uh, it's actually less than 2, 2, 2 months. Uh, uh, Steven, it's, uh, several weeks, uh, three and a half, I would say. And during such a short period of time, you are required to visit five cities at the program's choice. Uh, you are directed where to go, which is yet another, uh, element of fun, um, uh, that you are supposed to have by actually meeting the requirements of the program. And in my particular case, the f brought me, uh, from the, uh, Washington dc, which is the initial point, which is the point of entry for everyone. Americans would also come there as the American, uh, roster. We would spend a nice two and a half days there to, uh, to together. They would afterwards, uh, uh, uh, travel to Europe, uh, to see certain pre-selected European cities and, uh, us We would, uh, uh, have three cities participating each, uh, week. And they would kind of mingle us. They would mix up, uh, us, uh, in, in, in different ways. Can I ask,
Speaker 3 00:26:00 Can I interrupt for a second? Is, are the other 20 fellows, or you said there's about 20 of you, it's not all Ukrainians. Correct. And and they're not necessarily all lawyers, or are they?
Speaker 0 00:26:11 Uh, yes. I was the only Ukrainian citizen on the roster. Okay.
Speaker 3 00:26:15 And were they all lawyers as well, or No?
Speaker 0 00:26:18 No, at all. I was, I was the only Ukrainian, I was probably the only lawyer that I was definitely the only one who, uh, was, uh, in, uh, uh, with any kind of exposure to financial sector, which I, what I was doing as a banking finance lawyer before I joined, uh, uh, businessman Council as a deputy. And, uh, uh, uh, I do not think that, uh, uh, my colleagues had that much of an experience in a senior semi-government type of roles that I was occupying, which was sort of a bit circumstantial in my particular case, because, I mean, each roster is different. But, uh, uh, I mean, my, my, uh, uh, colleagues, uh, my dear friends now, they would be from, uh, uh, Poland, Portugal, Greece, France, Denmark, Finland, uh, uh, uh, yes. And, uh, there, there would be some countries or Romania, uh, and there would be some countries that would not be, uh, uh, featured at all, which is okay.
Speaker 0 00:27:34 I mean, uh, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's the way, um, uh, each roster is being, uh, compiled. Uh, and they would be from, uh, uh, different civil site organizations. Uh, they would be practicing, uh, doctors, uh, pediatricians. They would be from, uh, uh, European Space Agency, uh, uh, I mean, name it. And then the, the, uh, folk use of this NGOs and Civil Society organization would also be quite different. Uh, uh, ch ch, child Protection Inclusivity, city Corporation, uh, subnational Governments. Uh, we had one mayor from Croatia, by his way, uh, from a small town next to, um, Zagreb, uh, extremely diversified group. Yes.
Speaker 3 00:28:27 And, and would, would you characterize the goal of the program as essentially grassroots diplomacy people from different countries at, at various levels in, in, of success in their professions, getting to know each other, which hopefully fosters better relations in the future?
Speaker 0 00:28:48 It's to foster transatlantic corporation at all possible levels? Uh, uh, it's, uh, uh, based on the assumption that everyone would, uh, um, benefit sooner or, uh, later in, uh, uh, frankly, more modest way or in much more visible, uh, um, uh, Manuel Macro, uh, is the former, or is the actual, uh, JMF alumni? He Oh, wow. Think that I did. Uh, but back in 2006, um, um, Mok, uh, uh, she used to be a us, uh, EU Commissioner on Foreign Policy. Uh, she, she was also, uh, the part of gmf, uh, and that this is just something that is extremely visible and easy to kind of tie up, uh, with gmf, uh, to when the one is, uh, supposed to answer your question, right? But there are way too many other levels, uh, that, uh, uh, kind of remain with you, uh, as, uh, as this permanent bond that, uh, gmf, uh, creates between, uh, everyone who has been, um, with, uh, with the, one of the leadership development programs, uh, the, the network of, uh, alum is, is something that all of us would from now on, belong on, uh, forever.
Speaker 0 00:30:16 Uh, yesterday, for instance, uh, uh, while here in Prats lava, I, uh, was invited, uh, by, um, uh, uh, by, uh, uh, um, Maria Zakar, whom, uh, uh, I was supposed to meet much earlier at the beginning of this year when I was supposed to join the spring roster, but wasn't able to do so because of war. Uh, but nevertheless, we've finally met with him and his wife, who are GMF alums as well. Uh, his wife is, uh, helping out, uh, uh, as a advisor, uh, Slovak Prime Minister on Matters related to eu. And yesterday, uh, there was a meeting of, uh, Slovak g gmf alarm community, where, among other things, I've met, uh, uh, Paul Damage, for instance, who used to be, uh, a slow work minister of foreign affairs for many years, and director of GMF office in Bratislava for many years. Or, um, uh, MI Laki, uh, who is also now with the Prime Minister, and who'd been with Manuel Macron on his trip back in 2006.
Speaker 0 00:31:28 And who showed me this picture yesterday, uh, uh, Manuel hasn't changed that much. Uh, maybe just, uh, uh, a haircut became different, uh, uh, somewhat shorter, yes. But, uh, uh, we were laughing that, uh, uh, uh, you kind of might easily recognize that, uh, type of a GMF pictures when everyone is having a nice dinner at the end of a very difficult day. And there is always someone picturing, uh, a group sitting around the table, uh, having a dinner. And, uh, yeah, it's sort of a, almost like a cliche, but in a very nice, uh, sense amongst, uh, people that did the, the, the Jmf program. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:32:06 Um, and how, how was it being as, as a Ukrainian being in America while, while the war is going on, uh, in Ukraine with Russia,
Speaker 0 00:32:17 Uh, it's, uh, uh, you, you, you feel like you are on the mission? Uh, um, at least I'm sharing my own experience because, uh, uh, you might have observed, uh, from what I've said, that, uh, it was a pretty, uh, unique, uh, circumstances, uh, uh, to, to actually be being privileged to end up in such a roster. And the quality of meetings and the people we've met sometimes would, uh, uh, kind of place me in the situation when I was not able to resist the temptation, or of, or almost like, um, uh, maybe taking way too much time and stealing it from my fellows by actually trying to speak in favor of the Ukrainian cause. Uh, and, uh, uh, I'm just so much thankful to all of them who has, uh, showed so much humidity and compassion and empathy to me by not restraining anyhow, uh, this, uh, uh, um, enthusiasm, uh, which sometimes was probably just as a, as a water boiling over the, the port or something.
Speaker 0 00:33:25 But, uh, you know, when you are meeting the mayors of certain important cities, or a former, uh, congressman or, uh, um, uh, uh, uh, attorney general, uh, or a certain state, uh, uh, uh, you know, you feel, uh, you just, uh, need to pursue, uh, certain messages and deliver them, and to make sure that, uh, uh, uh, Ukrainian, uh, course is not, uh, being left, uh, in, in intact. Uh, we, this was something that needed to be mentioned Many times, sometimes you express anxiety, sometimes you, uh, sort of, uh, act in a, i, I cannot say in a controversial, but maybe in a somewhat, uh, even sensitive, uh, uh, uh, way, uh, uh, the, the, the end of October, beginning of November, if you might recall, was the period of time before us midterm elections when, uh, uh, everyone, uh, who was on the Ukrainian side, including Ukrainians, were particularly concerned with the ramifications of the, uh, possible, uh, reshuffling or, or a composition of in the House of Representatives.
Speaker 0 00:34:34 And one third would be changed in the, uh, in the Senate. But predominantly, uh, everyone was concerned about the ramifications of the new, uh, composition in the, in the house, uh, and, uh, uh, maybe, uh, not by Ukrainians, uh, or by, uh, Americans, by someone else. This, uh, uh, threat, uh, uh, was, uh, or a perception of this threat was being fueled to sort of show that there is a, a imminent risk that the Ukrainian, the, the, the cause will be not properly financed. Uh, after that, the, the threats to the Ukrainian, uh, UK Ukraine related aid, and we would have, uh, uh, certain bilateral, uh, type of meetings when people, uh, politicians from both, uh, uh, angles would be, uh, meeting us, and we would be talking to them current or former. And, uh, I would just simply be saying that, uh, uh, I'm not, not here to anyhow command the, uh, workings of the, of the American democracy.
Speaker 0 00:35:43 It's not, uh, my place to, uh, uh, show any particular opinion on what would reasonably be, uh, viewed and ha must be viewed as, uh, your internal matter. It's not correct, uh, to, uh, uh, opine on it. Uh, uh, but the only thing I would like to ask or double check whether our understanding is correct, is that if you guys are genuine by employing such a term as a, uh, bipartisan, uh, support, uh, ostensibly if this definition actually makes sense, it should mean that regardless of what are the outcomes of, uh, American internal political, uh, process, the output when it comes to supporting Ukraine shall not suffer, shall not change at all, because this is what bipartisan support is. And I can only confirm that, uh, that type of meetings that has been arranged for us, uh, proved that, uh, uh, we were speaking to a very much, uh, informed and reliable, uh, sources and people because, uh, these hint that, uh, we might, as a group have, uh, received that there is a good implied at that time chance that there will be a good financial package allocated and vaulted through the Congress, uh, and of December, beginning of January, I believe.
Speaker 0 00:37:14 Yes. Uh, uh, and it actually happened the way how I was reassured. So it was not, uh, uh, sort of something that, uh, um, I can now sort of looking, uh, retroactively, uh, I can only confirm that those people were, uh, very, very much genuine and frank speaking and open-minded with me. I received the correct, uh, uh, um, go ahead. So say correct information.
Speaker 3 00:37:41 That's, that's good to hear. I mean, I have to imagine that, um, for, for these people, for a lot, for all the people in the US who met you, it's one thing to hear about and read about the, the war in Ukraine through the news. And it's another thing to have somebody who's from Ukraine, uh, right in front of talking about it, um,
Speaker 0 00:38:01 Uh, to sort of, uh, uh, wrap up perhaps on this. The overall attitude would be, uh, that, uh, uh, every move what was extremely supportive. And the predominant sentence would be on all, uh, levels, uh, regardless whether that would be a very personal, uh, communication with someone who is the proud owner of the, uh, uh, ranch somewhere in, uh, Colorado Mountains where we would spend a night or, uh, actual incumbent, uh, leader of, uh, majority in a certain, uh, state legislature. Uh, and who would be speaking, uh, in, uh, um, uh, uh, not only personal, but also, uh, uh, political institutional capacity. The, uh, predominant sentence that I would hear the most often would be, how can we help? What would you like us to do? So, uh, it was very much appealing, uh, sometimes quite emotional, sentimental, but, uh, true.
Speaker 3 00:39:08 That's, that's very encouraging to hear. Um, now, uh, before you went on this trip, you worked for a number of years. Oh, oh. Prior to that, you were a, a, a lawyer, and then you were, uh, you worked with the Business Ombudsman Council in Ukraine. Um, now I, I'm assuming that when you were a child, you didn't say, when I grow up, I'm gonna be an ombudsman, since most children <laugh> are not familiar with an ombudsman. But, but, um, talk a little bit about how you went about your work as a lawyer, um, and how you, and then, and then your work, uh, with the Ombudsman Council.
Speaker 0 00:39:49 Oh, uh, it's, it's a difficult question in a sense that, uh, uh, I would have to concisely in a few sentences capture, uh, just several decades of my life, uh, Steven, uh, I mean, how, how can I answer that? Uh, well, uh, I, uh, uh, when I got back from Canada, uh, uh, uh, for the first time in 19, uh, uh, 98, I guess I have found that first in-house, uh, job with the firm that, uh, was involved in a certain tri trade finance business were a combination of my legal skills, uh, and, uh, language skills, uh, would be necessary. So, yes, uh, English would always be with me as a very important element of my professional leverage. Um, uh, and again, I can only repeat that, uh, uh, starting from, uh, not earlier than 19 97, 19 98, or maybe even later, that, uh, uh, uh, to help someone who is Ukraine trained lawyer and who's Maza tank, uh, is, is Ukrainian, uh, uh, would also be able to speak, who is also able to speak right.
Speaker 0 00:41:01 Uh, participate in negotiations, and actually argue on the client's behalf was quite a bit of a rarity. It's not as much as it is, uh, perhaps right now, uh, but, uh, the sort of most formidable part of my year started after I, uh, got back to Ukraine in 2002, uh, when, uh, uh, early, uh, in February that year, McGill, uh, granted me the master's degree already, by that time I was back in Ukraine, because I knew this, this is gonna happen. I already meant the requirements of the program in December, and left in December, 2001. And, uh, yes, uh, that was, uh, a big, uh, local firm, uh, uh, where I was involved in a variety of cross border finance, uh, deals, including on behalf of the state of Ukraine. Uh, where again, the English, uh, was, was a necessary precondition. It was must, I was basically hired because of that, uh, which was sort of inherent, uh, uh, towards expectations from someone who has just came from Canada.
Speaker 0 00:42:12 I mean, that's, that's, uh, that's your professional asset. And, uh, and by the way, what listeners might be kind of in interested in, in knowing that I did have, uh, some friends back in Canada, uh, when I was at the end of, uh, my academic tenure, uh, who would say, uh, Eros now, uh, stay here for another year, actually two, and pass, uh, this academic, uh, uh, or earn those academic points, uh, to qualify for the, uh, minimum, uh, academic, uh, level that you need in order to, uh, receive L l b. You know, you a as you might know very well, and the listeners too, uh, I have ended up doing graduate degree, and I would be eligible to receive it, but it wouldn't necessarily mean that they would be entitled to practice law in Canada. You would have to show the minimum, uh, academic, uh, uh, level, um, um, and, uh, minimum points, uh, all it's called.
Speaker 0 00:43:21 I have already, uh, credits, yes, minimum number of credits, uh, uh, including, uh, certain mandatory subjects, uh, which I didn't take neither in Alberta nor, uh, uh, at mcgi. And I just decided, uh, but among other things, because the legal market was, uh, not in a particularly flourishing state in Canada at that time, I, I can confirm. And because I, I was a little bit overwhelmed with my academic, uh, effort, I said, no, I wanna go back to Ukraine because the, the, the market there is kind of more lucrative, or me, and this as aspect of, uh, uh, uh, being someone who has command in several languages at that particular moment in time, triggered my decision not to stay in Canada, as you see, but actually come back and, uh, uh, uh, come back to, to, to Ukraine. And in k were, I could, I thought I could better capitalize on, on that.
Speaker 0 00:44:19 And the, yeah, after I got back, uh, for the second time, uh, there was this local firm, uh, called Magistrate Partners. Then there was the project with the World Bank, uh, which, uh, provided me with absolutely unique opportunity to, uh, uh, promote my secure transaction professor from McGill, late Roderick McDonald, who taught me secure transactions and who was academic supervisor of my thesis to come to Ukraine as a main expert to, uh, uh, draft Ukraine's secure transaction law. And I held him out in that as a Ukrainian lawyer, together with another colleague. There were three of us. And, uh, in terms of sort of a combination of the personal and the professional, uh, experience that those circumstances granted to me, it was just something unbelievable. I mean, imagine you start in the year 2000 on a very low level with an, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, with, uh, Canadian professor who only because of personal interaction with you have finally understood the difference between Amer between, uh, Russians and Ukrainians.
Speaker 0 00:45:42 Uh, we've been so low. I was the only graduate student in my secure transaction class at McGill, which was extremely complex, uh, four credits I remember now, but which I mastered. We, and out of that, we developed friendship. Uh, rod was willing to become my, uh, uh, academic supervisor, and guess where we ended up, we ended up, uh, continuing this in Ukraine as World Bank hired experts in doing this very important, uh, reform for Ukraine, uh, which, uh, actually even enabled me to do the same thing as you USA the experts. Before I joined Business Ombudsman Council, further by John, I did the good chunk of work, uh, for the National Bank, uh, there, uh, before the pro, uh, project started, and then it was taking over in finalize by the colleagues from International Finance Corporation. But after this, uh, uh, project with, uh, world Bank, uh, the actual, uh, experience with international law firms started, the first one was the associate, uh, and then senior associate position with, uh, American firm called Chatwin Park, well known in the US market.
Speaker 0 00:46:52 They used to have office there. Uh, I, I think four years I spent with them, uh, doing various commercial loadings for international clients, predominantly. And I mean, the, the English was, uh, the must. I mean, uh, you, you would, uh, I mean, while there, uh, uh, or subsequently when I left them to join, uh, Al, which was the French firm, uh, had, which also had office where I was in charge of banking finance practice for three and a half years. I mean, I can recall maybe one memorandum I have prepared, uh, in Ukrainian in, uh, one, uh, firm and maybe one memorandum in Russian, uh, in another. And I just don't recall in which one it was. But otherwise, it was the environment where all of the deliverables would be either bilingual or all in English. Um, so, uh, it was a interesting period, uh, uh, and, uh, for, for, for, again, for listeners, it was, uh, uh, it would be something that I could share.
Speaker 0 00:48:04 And I'm sure many of them know that, uh, uh, in a legal, uh, environment, environmental, the kind of a, uh, of, of doing pr, actual practicing lawyering, when you are with the law firm and you are bilingual, it's not, uh, only associated with your sort of a technical linguistic skills. Uh, we understand, uh, uh, between ourselves that, uh, if, uh, someone has good command in English and has a legal degree, not only from Ukraine, but also from, uh, Canadian University or American Law School, uh, it means that the person's legal, uh, training and mindset is sufficiently, uh, global, uh, is, uh, uh, as it was in particular in my case, is, uh, trained to, uh, interpret, um, is trained in both common law and civil law. That's what I wanted to say. Uh, the project that I mentioned about security transactions was an excellent example.
Speaker 0 00:49:12 And why wrote, uh, uh, what was selected was because at that time, Quebec was probably in, remains to be so the best jurisdiction in the world, which, uh, when it comes to, uh, us, uh, art, uh, U C C, article Nine, which is the most advanced secur transactions regime in the world, was able to, uh, transfer the knowledge, the substance into the form of the civil code and the legal terminology employed in a civil law jurisdictions, uh, Slovakia did it actually, to certain extent, in 2010, uh, or, uh, uh, in 2000 or 2001. And then Ukraine did it in 2003. And that's why, uh, uh, colleagues from Azerbaijan wanted to tap into this Ukrainian, uh, uh, experience, uh, that we have. But I mean, I guess what I wanna, uh, say is that it's much more greater than, uh, just the technical, um, command in, in language.
Speaker 0 00:50:17 It, it is also the embodiment of a certain mindset and your flexibility, uh, as, as a, as a, a lawyer who is capable to work in the international settings. I mean, that's the must. You cannot, uh, do cross border job of any sort, uh, in any field unless you, uh, uh, possess, uh, uh, command in several languages. Uh, it's, it's, it's clear. And then, yes, after the Revolution of Dignity, uh, which was in 2013, uh, um, polar, uh, I was enrolled, uh, by the way, with, uh, with the International Commercial Arbitration Academy, uh, that, uh, the International Chamber of Commerce organized for, uh, uh, lawyers from Central Eastern Europe to sort of enhance, uh, expand the roster of people that are trained to act as and arbitrators. Uh, yes, the revolution, uh, came to the end. I was willing to really invest something, uh, to my countries, uh, uh, progress.
Speaker 0 00:51:18 Uh, it was a special moment in time when, uh, also the government wanted to show its journey with the, uh, the existence of the true political will to improve, uh, access to justice for businesses in circumstances when courts as traditional dispute resolution mechanisms were not, uh, that much trusted. And yes, this concept, uh, the, this platform, or a bar called Businessman Council, was jointly set up by the government, E B R D, European Bank for Construction Development, O E C D and five large local business associations. So that was a stakeholder base, uh, that was basically a shareholder sitting in the supervisory board, and they needed operational team, and they had a competition, uh, for businessman and for two deputies. And, uh, I know that, uh, I was actually very much encouraged by many of my friends and colleagues to apply who are deputy business on Busman.
Speaker 0 00:52:12 They, they thought that for whatever reasons, maybe they felt it even better than I do, that I would fit the job description, which would be, uh, again, uh, environment, uh, very, uh, uh, challenging, uh, uh, when you are, uh, in between, uh, uh, very interesting set of, uh, multilingual internal stakeholders, uh, whom I mentioned, yes, uh, not only international financial institutions, but also the government and, uh, local businesses. But even the business associations would be, uh, a bit, uh, some would be a totally international, like an American Chamber of Commerce or European Business Association, and some would be more local like Union of Industrialists and Interpreters or, uh, um, uh, chamber of Commerce as a matter of the fact. Uh, and yeah, I mean, the language is just something that would, uh, be a cross-cutting element of, uh, your eligibility to stay on the job, to communicate with the internal stakeholders, speak to them in various circumstances, but also speak to business, uh, who, uh, applies.
Speaker 0 00:53:18 Uh, lawyers complaints speak to governmental officials on many levels, speak to external, um, uh, donors who would act as a financier. So this interchangeable need to, uh, all this, this needs to interchangeably use, uh, languages, uh, in a, a way that you cannot even predict to the extent you can, uh, when you are in a private practice in the law firm, was particularly descriptive of this position, uh, as much as you couldn't sort of predict and plan your day, uh, properly, because sometimes you are just there on call and you have to fulfill the duty that matches your status. Uh, it kind of goes along together, uh, inherently with the need to just, uh, don't even think, uh, uh, when you are switching from one language to another. Sometimes when you are on a high level meeting, uh, and there is no translator and, uh, prime Minister is communicating to, uh, uh, a leading person from, uh, uh, Brussels or whatever, it's just translate. I mean, you, you, you, you, and you have to be okay. There's the element of, uh, you know, adjustability. There is nothing wrong with that. That's the part of the job to be always kind of acute and prepared. And that was something that I was doing indeed for seven and a half years in the institution that was, uh, acting as a alternative dispute resolution mechanism to enable businesses to get access to justice fair treatment challenge, business malpractices, uh, from, from all types of public authorities. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:54:59 And so after that experience, um, and, and your experience, uh, with the German Marshall Memorial Fellow Program, um, what's gonna be next for you?
Speaker 0 00:55:13 Uh, German Marshall Memorial, uh, fellowship program would have to occur no matter whether I would be incumbent or not. I was picked up, selected for this role when I was still in my position even before, uh, uh, uh, before Covid. Uh, so, uh, the, uh, GMF experience was, uh, uh, not something that I would characterize as, uh, uh, sort of a type of a job. Yeah, that was, uh, a very peculiar immersion. So, uh, uh, a field trip, uh, I, I, and I have to mention, uh, uh, uh, Stephen, those five cities that, in my particular case I visited, it was Washington, Baltimore, Denver, Atlanta, and New York. That what was in my particular case, but, uh, that was more like a, a very special once upon a lifetime title and experience. Uh, yeah,
Speaker 3 00:56:06 Sounds like it,
Speaker 0 00:56:07 By the way. Not only, uh, official meetings, uh, NFL matches, uh, NBA matches, uh, music, Broadway musicals, uh, um, uh, you know, uh, uh, winery not far away from New York on a on, on a Long Island. Uh, variety, variety of different, uh, interesting, uh, uh, uh, uh, things, uh, from, from, from different, uh, uh, kind of levels. Uh, each, uh, uh, city would have its own city coordinator, and the city coordinator would be the one who would be running the show for us. He, he or she is vested with the full discretion to organize for us, uh, what he or she seems fit. Therefore, you are kind of all over. And, uh, yeah, you, you are visiting some incredible, uh, places and meeting with some absolutely incredible people. Uh, but now, uh, I, uh, think I, uh, would, uh, try to, uh, ascertain, uh, how does this leverage and skillset I possess, uh, can be best capitalized on, uh, when I don't know wh which of those, uh, are of the particular demand.
Speaker 0 00:57:27 And in order to identify this for myself, I would probably for some time keep my eyes opened against, uh, types of, uh, short term consultancy expert opportunities that match my, um, qualification. And I would, uh, take some of them on board, and I would see how it goes, uh, to maybe, uh, arrive to some, uh, uh, conclusion at some point in time, uh, uh, uh, later on, if there will be some full-time offers. It's not that I'm particularly working on, on, on them, uh, now, I cannot exclude that. Uh, some might arrive, uh, maybe for, uh, something that would be, if we are talking about in-house position, uh, would be more along the lines of, uh, corporate affairs, government relations, legal compliance type of a director. Um, if it is, uh, in a legal business, uh, yes, I might be joining as a, as, as certain, uh, suitable, uh, uh, law firm, uh, which is interested in developing areas of practice or strengthening them, uh, uh, where they will see that I can bring in something on board.
Speaker 0 00:58:37 I also possess, um, the good expertise, uh, in, um, uh, going through this, uh, elements of, uh, corporate, um, experience to corporate governance. We are Ukrainian Corporate Governance Academy, uh, uh, in, uh, in, in what is, uh, uh, not executive board member type of role. So I can try myself there as well. I cannot exclude, there might be some corporates that would be willing to help someone like me on board in the actual sense of the world, of the world on board. Yeah. On board, yes. And yeah, I mentioned, uh, uh, chartered Institute of Arbitrators and, uh, uh, arbitration as such, either international commercial or international investment. It would be a very lucrative, uh, opportunity that would indeed create a temptation for me that I am definitely not willing to resist if there will be an opportunity to employ my expertise there. Uh, that would be something that, uh, I would gladly accept that that, that, that is something very much desirable.
Speaker 0 00:59:37 But, uh, I don't know whether someone might have spoken on this podcast earlier. This is not, I, at least this is my perception, the number of well-qualified professionals, the supply of expertise greatly exceeds the demand. And it comes to, uh, uh, particular international investment arbitration, maybe to somewhat lesser extent international commercial. But I did some things while, uh, uh, with the business on Westman Council that fall under the category of investor state dispute resolution, E ds mediation when, uh, some of our complainants would be threatening the state of Ukraine with the, uh, actual lawsuit, uh, with launching the International Tree arbitration. And, uh, the so-called cooling of period would start, uh, the one that is envisaged under B a t, uh, bilateral Investment Treaty, or, uh, multi lateral instruments such as Energy Charter Treaty. So the ministry of, of, of Justice would create an ad hoc working group, uh, comprising governmental officials on one side, and, uh, us meeting the potential complainant site during a non-confidential workings of the working group. And I would act, uh, effectively as a, as a ator. I'm hopeful that that might happen with me at some point in time with my career.
Speaker 3 01:01:07 And another question, or sort of a last question I wanted to ask you about. Um, I, I know from my own experience teaching Ukrainian graduate law students online this last semester, and from an article that appeared in the New York Times that I had read, there's sort of a, a, a balance between, uh, during, during the war of life, in some ways going on as normal and in other ways being, uh, very disrupted. In what ways has the war affected and changed the way you work and, and the things you're able to do? And in what ways has it not affected it? I'm not sure if that's an easy question to answer or not.
Speaker 0 01:01:56 Uh, well, um, I would be having difficulties trying to pick up on something that has, uh, uh, a positive impact, of course. Um, I mean, uh, it was, uh, uh, and remains to be a rather difficult period for my, uh, family. We remained to be split, uh, family settled down here in, uh, in sla. I am supposed to spend most of my time in ca, um, the, uh, beginning of the war, or that pre-war period, uh, actually continues that, uh, regime that we started to employ in the Businessman Council to enable people to work on the distance. And while, uh, it is generally desirable for many institutions, uh, in the short term, uh, or immediate term, uh, perspective, when such settings continue lasting for two or three years, uh, that is not, uh, what, uh, not only this particular institution, but I think many other teams, uh, maybe wouldn't necessarily have to benefit from, because the, the, the opportunity of the direct, uh, interaction and communication in the office settings, uh, is, uh, still, uh, needed.
Speaker 0 01:03:32 It doesn't have to be overestimated, but it shall not be underestimated as well. The, the opportunity of the actual personal communication is, uh, is important. Uh, what I will learned is that, uh, uh, you know, human beings are prone to getting inadvertently adjusted to many, uh, difficult, uh, circumstances, uh, and, uh, or inconveniences, I would say. And that, uh, uh, that, uh, I am not in the position to compare myself to those brave, uh, ladies and gentlemen that are fighting for us on the front line. I'm just speaking like, uh, ordinary person who would be supposed to stay, what, two months after I returned from the US in my apartment in kv, uh, before I managed to, um, come to, to, to Slava for a few weeks. And, uh, yeah, you held like, uh, 55 hours without electricity one time. Uh, after the strikes, uh, you have 48 hours.
Speaker 0 01:04:49 Another, you are looking at the website of, uh, the power supply company, uh, in the morning, uh, to plan your day ahead, because they would announce, uh, time slots when the electricity will be definitely not available, some when it'll definitely be available, and some 50 50. And, uh, that's kind of a situation, which requires from you to plan your, uh, time, uh, accordingly. When I ended up here with my laptop, uh, I kind of arrived, I realized with the same mindset, you kind of tend to start assuming that electricity is something that is not to be available 24 hours a day. And for some strange reasons, I was experiencing like the real uprising of, uh, my commitment to work, work, work, work, and get something done while the electricity is still available. Maybe it was, uh, something that my brain was demanding from me for some good 10 days.
Speaker 0 01:05:59 And, uh, you sort of get, uh, adjusted there to, um, sirens, uh, air attack, sirens when there is an alert. And, uh, uh, you change this, the, the country for a little while, and you, uh, kind of start hearing a certain traffic, uh, police, uh, uh, sirens or something. We, we are living here not far away from the, uh, presidential palaces here in sla. So this, you know, guys, uh, uh, uh, bringing back and forth officials, maybe the, the first person herself would be kind of, uh, uh, driving around the city, and you hear the sirens as well, but your immediate brain reaction to that would be that, oh, this is air, uh, strike alerts. That's the way how, uh, you know, the, that's being consumed by your, uh, brain, really. Um, that's on, on a very much primitive, I would say, uh, everyday type of, uh, observation and experiences, uh, situation or, uh, uh, reaction to towards your question.
Speaker 0 01:07:13 But, uh, uh, if I were to try to employ some, uh, kind of a helicopter view type of, uh, uh, uh, analysis, uh, I, I, I think, uh, it, it just goes along the various themes related to the fact that we have unrailed, uh, ourselves as Ukrainians, both, uh, uh, towards each other, what we are capable for as a strong, uh, uh, nation, that, uh, uh, when we are sometimes doing something, uh, uh, amongst people that have never, uh, met before and will probably never meet again. Uh, uh, it's, uh, you know, the, the passion and the sentiment towards that is almost like you are, you belong to a big family. And, uh, that's a very intimate, very special feeling, uh, and interpretation of belongingness, uh, that, uh, uh, that, that you acquire. Uh, and, uh, from that, I guess it's, it's a necessary kind of an emotional, uh, and big, uh, uh, spring hall, uh, springboard to, to sort of start transmitting this, uh, all over, uh, the world, uh, to, to, uh, if you're talking about the collective West democratic world, uh, central in Western Europe, uh, whatever, uh, plus North America, whatever the definition of that is, uh, I think you, you, you saw it yourself.
Speaker 0 01:08:55 You realized it through our experience that, uh, many things related to the freedom of, uh, choice, uh, the, uh, uh, results of a normal democratic process, um, uh, fairness, uh, certain values that we all share. This is not to be taken for granted. This to be, this is to be cherished, observed and defended, uh, sometimes yeah. E, e e even in a such a, uh, a way as it is happening right now. Uh, um, so I, uh, I think the, the, uh, level of sacrifice that we are making, um, with our lives, uh, is, uh, uh, not only for, for, for us, uh, it's predominantly for the sake of, uh, preserving ukraine's independency, uh, and, um, uh, actually existence of our, uh, nation. It's in its national recognized, uh, uh, borders, uh, Asha and our all national state, uh, uh, build up our statehood. It's, it's, it's about sharing, uh, uh, the, the, the sentiment on the greater scale.
Speaker 0 01:10:14 It's, it's to, it's to say that, uh, the last argument that could have been used in order to show that, uh, Europe without Ukraine is not complete, uh, is, uh, being, uh, uh, is, is, has actually been used, uh, uh, courtes, so to say, of our, uh, cruel, um, uh, northern neighbors. And, uh, uh, we have to finish it up and continue on together. Um, it sort of, uh, uh, yeah, maybe it, it, uh, it, it woke up many in the collective West from this lethargic, uh, uh, uh, dream let condition, uh, when, uh, again, many things were taken, uh, way too much for granted. And, uh, as one of the, uh, UK politicians, uh, sat, uh, uh, in, in her programming speech, it was, uh, the, the, the prime Minister, uh, who was in her position only several days, uh, uh, she said, uh, uh, at the beginning of, uh, um, uh, uh, June, and I cannot agree, uh, more, uh, with, with what she said was that, uh, after the breakup of the former Soviet Union, uh, Russians were allowed to tap into the network of economic relations and, uh, commercial and business projects with, uh, uh, was the collective west, predominantly with Western European countries.
Speaker 0 01:12:03 And, uh, that was facilitated and encouraged, uh, based on the assumption that, uh, effectively the, uh, economic interest business as the way to characterize and recharge the relations with the, uh, former, uh, Soviet power would let that Soviet power, uh, or Russians change. But in fact, what we have observed with this war was that, uh, economy and business lost to e ideolog,
Speaker 0 01:12:42 And all those efforts were, and, and the assumptions that led to this approach to be pursued for, uh, several decades when, uh, the stockpile of the, uh, European and even American, uh, conventional weapons became so much dried out and, uh, de updated, um, was the result of the belief in the effect that this approach is correct. And there is no more any, uh, uh, other threat, and the, there will be no more conventional war in the boundaries of, uh, uh, of continental, uh, Europe. But that, uh, calculation proved out to be, uh, wrong. Of course, I was referring to what Liz Truss, former UK Prime Minister had to say, I guess when she was not yet, uh, appointed to the PA role, and she was in the cabinets, uh, I think, uh, responsible for the, for the foreign policy. It was, it was very, very clever, clever statement at that time. Yeah.
Speaker 3 01:13:53 Um, let me ask you one question before we wrap up. Um, is there anything that you've read or, or watched recently or listened to, uh, that you might recommend for our listeners?
Speaker 0 01:14:07 I was recommended to read the book, uh, which dates back to 1996, written by two lawyers, uh, uh, and scholars, uh, who were not arbitrators in terms of their immediate background, but who wanted to, uh, and their names are e Desai and Brian Gars. And, uh, this is the book, uh, uh, that was originally published in 1886. It's called Dealing in Virtue International Commercial Arbitration and the Construction of a Trans, uh, transnational Legal Order. And, uh, this is the, uh, book generally regarded as one of the arbitration classics explaining, uh, how the interesting mixture of, um, economic and political events of seventies and eighties, uh, led to the rise and creation of the international commercial arbitration, the way the authors saw it as of 1996. This is a fascinating book based on the comprehensive, uh, interviewing of, uh, uh, maybe 50, if not more senior, uh, arbitration professionals, both scholars and lawyers.
Speaker 0 01:15:42 And it kind of explains and refers to both petroleum, uh, disputes of seventies, eighties between Norths and Souths. It, it's explains the situations when, uh, at the outset of popularity of International com commercial arbitration, US litigators would end up in the commercial, uh, international commercial arbitration, uh, hearing rooms dominated by the grant old man typically comprising eu, uh, represented by the eu, uh, law professors. And how this, um, uh, soft, uh, contentious situations, uh, led to the, uh, interesting byproduct, the so to say that led to the rise in popularity of such an instrument as international commercial arbitration, and why it is the part of the greater phenomena called international, uh, uh, or a transnational legal order. I would totally recommend it for anyone who would just add leisure time, like to, uh, entertain yourself with the way how, uh, the course of recent events in seventies, eighties, and nineties, uh, all over the world has, uh, facilitated creation of such a phenomenon.
Speaker 0 01:17:11 It has a very practical situations when, let's say it's very nicely shown, uh, that the, uh, better institutional capacity possessed by reach us litigators, firms that started to do international, uh, commercial arbitration, automated, uh, but at the same time out weighted European, uh, law professors and at the same time benefited, uh, and reached the, the eventual, uh, uh, departure from Latoria that was employed by professors towards more structured and organized and more procedurally focused, uh, and, uh, uh, uh, uh, picture that describes what the international commercial arbitration is right now. So it's, it's very interesting about the clash of, uh, uh, not only the corporation between countries, as you mentioned, which is also nice to describe in the book, but also about the clash of a different, even actors in this legal theater possessing totally different background and mindset, but who are still been forced possessed to actually either cooperate or oppose each other, and what would be the kind of, uh, uh, uh, by product of that explosion, you know?
Speaker 3 01:18:29 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for, for sharing that. And I'll, I'll briefly share my, my recommendations for this episode, which are two of my favorite podcasts. One is the BBC's Ukraine Cast, which is how I keep up on what's going on in Ukraine, as well as, um, getting a lot of insights into personal stories going on in, in inside the war in Ukraine. Um, and the other one that I've, I've really enjoyed is the BBC's, uh, I think it's an eight part series on called Putin, which is all about who Vladimir Putin is and how he came to be and puts a lot of things in, in perspective, uh, in terms of today's events. So thank you so much a Ursula for taking the time to, to join me today.
Speaker 0 01:19:15 It was my pleasure, Steven. Um, I, I'm hopeful that if you were to receive some feedback from your listeners, you would definitely share it with me in a due course,
Speaker 3 01:19:27 <laugh>, we certainly will in due course. Um, so if you have any feedback on this episode, please do let us know and, and we will be sure to share it with Yara SL as well. Um, we will include any relevant links from this episode in the show notes. Uh, I wanna remind our listeners to subscribe to the US Law Essentials Podcast on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Himalaya, or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can also listen to all episodes on US law essentials.com and if you have any questions, comments, reactions, ideas, et cetera, we always love hearing from our listeners, you can contact us by email at daniel us law essentials.com or through the US Law Essentials Facebook group or LinkedIn Group. So thank you for listening to US Law Essentials Law and Language Podcast, and stay essential.
