Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 It ended up opening a lot of doors that I didn't necessarily think would be open to me. And I do think that if, if you do have language skills, keep them up, cultivate them, because I think those will proof to be equally helpful. If not more helpful, then your law degree when it comes to operating in
Speaker 1 00:00:20 Oh, yay. Oh yay. All persons having business before the Honorable, the Supreme Court of the United States admonished to draw there and give their attention.
Speaker 2 00:00:30 Welcome to the US Law Essentials Law and Language Podcast, the legal English podcast for non-native English speakers to help you improve your English listening, improve your legal English vocabulary, and build your knowledge of American legal culture. Hi, this is Daniel. And before we begin today's episode, I wanna remind you that US Law Essentials offers online courses in legal, English and US law. Our courses are designed for international attorneys, law students, and translators. If you have any questions, please contact Daniel at Daniel us law essentials.com and join us on Facebook and on LinkedIn. And now today's episode,
Speaker 3 00:01:16 Welcome to the US Law Essentials Law and Language Podcast. I'm your host, Steven Horowitz. And today we continue our series of interviews on the topic of multilingual lawyers with our special guest, Tanya Pri, who is co-director at the World Justice Project, which is known for its annual publication of the Rule of Law Index. Uh, welcome Tanya. Thanks so much for joining this episode.
Speaker 0 00:01:40 Thanks so much for having me, Steven. It's great to be here.
Speaker 3 00:01:43 Uh, Tanya has a law degree from University of Montreal and a master's in International Affairs from Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies, otherwise known as Seiss. Uh, and she's also fluent in Spanish, French, Italian, English. And if I'm not mistaken, Canadian too. You speak Canadian <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:02:09 That's unfair. That's not nice. That was not <crosstalk>.
Speaker 3 00:02:13 <laugh>. Is that a, I guess is it a dialect? It's not even a dialect.
Speaker 0 00:02:16 I can speak Canadian a
Speaker 3 00:02:19 Can you speak American? I guess that that's a, that's sort of a dialect question, you know, too. Anyway. Okay. Uh, in addition to all that, and you won't find this on her LinkedIn profile, she lives across the street from me and has two boys who love playing soccer as much as my son does.
Speaker 0 00:02:36 Which is a lot.
Speaker 3 00:02:37 Which is a lot. Right. <laugh>. Okay. So Tanya, the, the first thing I wanna ask you is, um, if you could tell me a little bit about your own language and cultural background.
Speaker 0 00:02:48 Sure, of course. Um, so this is an easy one and I really, um, I know it sounds like a lot of languages, but really I, I have very little merit in learning most of them because I was born in a, a multicultural family where my dad is Italian born and and raised in Italy and then immigrated to Canada. And my mom is Egyptian and also immigrated to Canada in her twenties. So she, she grew up speaking French and, and Arabic. And my dad grew up speaking Italian. And so when I was born, I spoke, um, Italian with, with my grandparents who, who also immigrated to, to Canada at the time and had never actually learned English or, or French, which is a whole other interesting story, how basically you could live your whole life in Canada and not end up learning the language. Um, so I spoke Italian with them as a, as a kid growing up.
Speaker 0 00:03:35 And my parents, I think at the time I'd read a book about language acquisition for children and had, um, picked up on this, this idea of the child can learn as many languages as as you want, really as long as you can associate a parent or a person to the language. So they decided to split up the remaining to, so I spoke exclusively French to my mom and exclusively English to my dad. And that's basically how I kind of got all those three, you know, under my belts as an infant. Um, and then in school, learning Spanish was the easy way out. I had the option between Spanish and, and German. And I chose Spanish because I was lazy. And it, it turned out to be, um, probably the right choice cuz cuz German is very hard. Um, I'm married to a half German now, so I know. And, um, <laugh> and when you speak French and Italian, Spanish comes easily. Although I think we, we've talked about this before, it also can be a little bit tricky because there are a lot of, um, you know, things that you think would be the same and turn out not to be the same. So, oh,
Speaker 3 00:04:37 You mean false friends?
Speaker 0 00:04:38 Yes. Thank you. I knew there was a word for that in English. False,
Speaker 3 00:04:41 Uh, false cognates is, uh, is one word, but then false friends is the term that people like to use. Yeah. Like, like <unk> in Spanish. Yes. Which does not mean embarrassed.
Speaker 0 00:04:52 No, exactly. I've had a few of those embarrassing moments, um, in both in, in Spanish and actually also sometimes in Italian when I've used, um, when I've used the wrong, the wrong word. But, um, so yeah, so that's how I learned those languages. And then I, I, I studied a little bit of Arabic and my mom spoke Arabic to her family mostly when she didn't want me to understand what was going on. So there was an incentive there to try to pick it up. But it's, it's a very, uh, very, very challenging languages. So I learned, you know, I can read and write, um, and I, I I can understand very basic, but I've, I've basically lost over time what I had mastered cuz it, you know, if you don't practice it, you lose it.
Speaker 3 00:05:33 And, and you mentioned to me one time that you also learned Spanish living in Mexico.
Speaker 0 00:05:39 Yeah, I, uh, I actually ended up in kind of a weird set of circumstances being an a pair to a Mexican family, which I think we, we typically imagine the, you know, the, the scenario the other way around. But I was a Canadian a pair living with a Mexican family, helping with their, they had four kids. And so I, I lived with them for a while and, and came back to, to Canada speaking not only Spanish, but, but Chihuahua, Spanish, Mexican, Spanish, which has a very, very strong accent. Um, and so my, my parents, my dad especially, who also speaks Spanish, was just laughing and making fun of me when I, when I came back from that trip,
Speaker 3 00:06:20 <laugh> do, do you still have that accent
Speaker 0 00:06:22 In Spanish? No, I lost it promptly. I lost it <laugh>, I lost it promptly for better or for worse.
Speaker 3 00:06:28 And, and did you grow up, I mean, you grew up in Montreal. Did you, did you study in school in French or in English?
Speaker 0 00:06:36 Yeah, so I went to school, I did all my schooling in French, actually throughout elementary high school. I, I even went to law school in French. And um, you know, I speak English. I speak English fluently. Ob obviously, well ob hopefully, obviously <laugh>. Um, although
Speaker 3 00:06:52 I barely, I barely hear your accent. I barely hear
Speaker 0 00:06:55 <laugh>. But it, I, until, until I actually went to, it's, it's not, it's not until I went to law to grad school that I actually started studying in English. And uh, up until then I would even read, um, you know, I'm an avid reader and I would read all my books translated into French. So even just regular, um, you know, novels, I would, I would retranslate it. But then I, I went to grad school and I had to do a lot of reading in English, so I, I quickly switched over. But yeah, French was the language of most of my studies.
Speaker 3 00:07:27 And so, so then how did, how did you learn English? Were you speaking English a lot at home or where, where were you speaking English?
Speaker 0 00:07:34 I spoken at home with my dad, and so of course I was, I was comfortable in it. But I think when you study in a language that's the one that you're, you're most comfortable reading and, and writing in. So I felt comfortable enough in English to, to speak it fluently. And of course, even though I went to a French school in Quebec, we had English classes and they split us up in different groups. So there were some of ours, some of our friends who had very little English at all. And so they were in the kind of, you know, elementary English level. And then those of us who spoke fluently did more of the typical English of, you know, reading the Shakespeare and, and doing those things. But it was just a few hours a week. So it's not the same level that you would get if you actually studied in English.
Speaker 3 00:08:15 And when you do math in your head, what language do you, do you do it in or can you switch?
Speaker 0 00:08:20 Oh yeah, no, that's absolutely the one thing I cannot do in English. So I think once you learn math in a language, you cannot go back. So even with the kids, um, if we're, if we're adding things or multiplication, I'll just always do it in French. And as a matter of fact, it's, it's, sometimes it's funny cuz I'll be in the office, which is, you know, exclusively almost English setting, and I'll be with my colleagues and we'll be doing some quick calculations and I'll, and I'll slip into French and they just, they, they think that's quite funny. But I, that's the one thing I cannot, I cannot do in English.
Speaker 3 00:08:51 Oh, that's really interesting. Okay. I lo I love asking that question to, to people. Cause I realize no matter how much I think I've learned a language, uh, you know, the thought of doing math in it and, and a former student of mine from Korea told me that one of the hard parts of the bar exam for him was, um, contract law questions. And the ones about, uh, mortgage law or finance, when he had to deal with numbers, um, suddenly it, it slowed him down a lot. The processing got a lot slower of doing, doing it in English.
Speaker 0 00:09:21 So yeah, I can see that. I can see that.
Speaker 3 00:09:24 Now when you mentioned your office, you're at the World Justice Project. Can you tell me a little bit about the World Justice Project and what it does?
Speaker 0 00:09:32 Yeah, of course. So the, the World Justice Project is a small nonprofit based here in DC although we have offices in Singapore and Mexico as well. So we're a little bit international. And really the goal of the, the wjp or the World Justice Project is to help, uh, promote and, um, encourage the development of the rule of law around the world. And we do that in different ways. Um, the, the main ways through our research and primary data collection that we do for an annual report that we put out called the Rule of, um, the Rule of Law Index. And in that report we basically score all the countries, well not all the countries we're currently covering 140, but basically we look at those, those 140 countries, we score them and, uh, rank them on how well they're doing on various measures of rule of law. And then, you know, a lot of our other research comes from that. So we'll have reports that focus specifically on a country or in a specific theme like corruption, for instance. But always with the overall objective of promoting and encouraging, um, you know, better rule of law around the world.
Speaker 3 00:10:46 And, and do you, are you functioning in a multilingual capacity in your work?
Speaker 0 00:10:52 To a certain extent, yes. So of course the work that we do as in English, um, but there are certain ways in which languages are helpful. So one is that we collect data from, from the general population. So we, we get people off the street to fill up polls, um, and get a sense of their experience and perceptions about the rule of law in their countries. And those surveys have to be translated into the local languages. So of course you have all the languages and we don't do most of those translations, but it does help if one of us on the team can review the surveys in French and in Spanish. Um, and we also interview lawyers and we don't translate all those surveys in the local languages because we found that typically working with lawyers, we can get, get away with English in most countries, but we do translate those surveys into the, the main other languages.
Speaker 0 00:11:42 So we have them in Spanish and French and, and Russian and Arabic. And so again, having those, um, language skills on the, on the team makes it, makes it easier. And then of course, we try to disseminate our work elsewhere, and so we'll often organize events in Latin America. Um, and those will be in Spanish. I've done a lot of work in Western Africa. We were basically doing a lot of work with civil society organizations and Western Africa, trying to encourage them to use our data in their own advocacy efforts. And we found that, especially when working with civil society organizations, you really have to work, you know, in their language. So we, we worked a lot in French. We, um, we sometimes even translate our report in, um, into Spanish, but in this case we, um, we don't, we wouldn't translate the report in in French, but it is helpful to have someone on the team can, that can present. And do, you know, the actual work of connecting with, with our stakeholders in, in the language.
Speaker 3 00:12:42 And did, did you know that you wanted your career to be one where you were using, where you were working cross culturally and cross lingually as well? How, how did you end up in this career path?
Speaker 0 00:12:55 Yeah, it was a little bit of a, of a non-linear path, I would say. Um, I knew when I, when I finished law school and after working in a law firm for a little while, that I didn't necessarily want to be a, a lawyer, but I didn't know exactly what that next step looked like. And so when I, when I went to to grad school, I did choose a program, you know, like you mentioned, I went to sys and I did international relations. There was a focus there on both the kind of international, um, realm and also languages. One of the things that you had to do in that program was was learn a language. Um, so I did, I did see that as a, as a focus of mine, and I didn't necessarily focus on the languages as a skill at the time, but I have come to realize now that it really is a huge asset when looking for jobs or moving from one job to the other. The ability to be able to, um, I mean seamlessly, not exactly, but to work seamlessly almost in, in multiple languages is really a, a huge, a huge asset.
Speaker 3 00:13:58 Yeah, I, I can imagine. Are there, are there ever challenges to being multilingual or, or dealing, um, cross lingually or cross-culturally in, in your work or in your career?
Speaker 0 00:14:10 What, what I have found interesting in my experience is that, like I said, English is not my, my mother tongue. It's really the third language I learned, and I, I think I learned it. I, I became more comfortable in English much later in life. And so for a long time I considered myself to be a francophone and, and speaking Italian fluently. And having been in the US for a while and working primarily in English for a while, I now I now find that I, I struggle to do certain things that came very naturally to me before in French and Italian and Spanish. I struggle to do those now. So the, the way we speak in English, I find so very immediate and easy, and I find that very often now I struggle a little bit with, um, translating certain terms that we use and translating, translating certain expressions.
Speaker 0 00:15:00 There's just a lot of these kind of keywords or buzzwords that we use in English combinations of, of, of things that will just, like, we put words together and, you know, just stakeholder engagement. We, I mean, it's kind of a cheesy example, but like, we use that a lot in our, in our work or knowledge creation. And I, I've, I've come to realize that when I, when I have these presentation and I have these words in English that I, I need to translate into French or Spanish, it, they just don't sound right. You don't have the, the similar kind of easy two word, just the position you end up having to use kind of a sentence and a descriptor and it becomes very clunky and it feels a little bit, um, heavy. So that has been challenging for me and just interesting how really I've, I've kind of embraced <laugh> English as my working language now. And I think just generally when you start working in a language and you use a lot of technical terms, you also realize that even though you can be very fluent in another language, if you haven't studied that specific area, technically in that language, there are just terms that, um, you're not going to know how to, how to say, even something as simple as rule of law. I have to remind myself how do, how do we say rule of law in, in Spanish? Um,
Speaker 3 00:16:16 So yeah, how, how does it, how does it translate in Spanish and French? Is it a direct translation?
Speaker 0 00:16:21 It's the, it, you translate it by saying the state of law, so <unk> or Yes, but it's not one that it's used quite as frequently as we would in English.
Speaker 3 00:16:32 Right. We're very big on it here and we like promoting rule of law. And there's, I know the American Bar Association has a whole rule of law initiative, which is a, is a big thing. And, and the US government likes promoting US rule of law. Right. Um, ah, so those kinds of terms are, are tricky to, to translate in, in other, so how do you, how do you translate something like stakeholder engagement? What does that sound like in Spanish or French?
Speaker 0 00:16:59 So in French you would say <foreign>, which is basically a direct translation. Um, but it's, it, it feels a little bit clunky. Um, I have found that working, this is an interesting little sidebar, but I have found that working with francophones from France or Africa is slightly different than working from with Francophones in Quebec. Um, it, the, the French francophones will be much more likely to actually adopt an English word when there's no good equivalent in French. In Quebec, we have a bit of a, I'm gonna say chip on our shoulder, but I don't want to get political, but we do have a sense of try. We, there is a real desire to preserve the French language in Quebec that maybe doesn't exist as much in, in France because it, the language doesn't feel under attack. And so in Quebec we really, we really struggle to, um, create or use the French word when possible to refer to English concepts.
Speaker 0 00:18:04 So even, you know, sometimes in Quebec they'll say <unk>, which is a little translation of hotdog, even though hotdog is a commonly used wor word everywhere, but in Quebec they will really make a point of saying, no, it's not hotdog, it's shk. Um, and so that's, you know, sometimes it could be a little bit tricky because you really just want to use the English word that's so convenient, but you find yourself wanting to then, um, actually say it the right way and find the French word, which I think is actually good. We, we often just, and this this is actually the case for anybody who's grown up in Montreal, bilingual, we, we often end up kind of bastardizing both languages because you know that the person you're speaking to is, is equally fluent in French or English, and you end up just switching from one to the other.
Speaker 0 00:18:50 I remember that was very surprising to some of my friends here in the US when they would hear me speaking on the phone or just talking to a Canadian friend the way we just, or a Quebec friend, the way we just seamlessly go from one language to the other without, without thinking even mid-sentence, just using a few words. And that's not, I mean, I think it's great in a way, it shows fluency, but it sometimes it, it becomes tricky if you really wanna be good about just speaking in one language and not, and not boring where it's from another
Speaker 3 00:19:19 Yeah. I, I think that's common in, in, I've seen that in other speakers of other languages too. Like speakers from, um, China who are living here. Well, I'll hear them or, or Korea, I'll hear them going back and forth, even though they're speaking with somebody who speaks the same bo you know, the same two languages. They'll just, they'll switch back and forth, which is maybe how sort of mixes or, or Creoles or, or or other types of, of sort of language shifts, uh, happen and evolve. Okay. Let me shift the conversation a little bit now. So you, you studied law in Canada, um, and Canada is also a common law legal system, at least in part if not whole. And it's also a federal legal system, kind of like the US but not entirely like the us. What's, what's your ex what's your perspective or or take on that since, uh, since moving to the US and, and, and living and working here?
Speaker 0 00:20:21 Yeah, so there are some commonalities and I would say, I think the official definition is not so much common law, but I think the word is by, I think basically because we have two systems, uh, common and civil law, we actually describe it as a, a dual system. Um, this being said, really there's common law everywhere except for Quebec. So that's Quebec is, is the exception to, to that rule. But in, in Quebec we are governed by both common and civil law, but all civil matters are governed by the, the Quebec civil code, which is basically the, you know, the descendant of the Nepal Napoleonic code. Um, so any kind of private matter, civil matter, um, anything that's within the provincial realm will be dealt with in Quebec through civil law typically. And then anything that's federal. Um, so you're talking, you know, constitutional law, criminal law, um, what else? Intellectual property, for example. Those things are dealt with through common law. So in most of the country you have common law for everything. And then in Quebec you have civil law for the civil code, and then common law for anything that's, that would be federal, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 00:21:38 And, and how does Canada deal with say, um, jurisdictional diversity, um, when it comes to, let's see, somebody from Ottawa within a lawsuit with somebody from Quebec and there's, and, and I guess there's issues of language as well, perhaps.
Speaker 0 00:21:59 Yeah, so the, uh, the language one is easy because Canada also has, in addition to having a dual legal system, it also has two official languages. So all are official documents, all court proceedings, anything that's official needs to be done in, in both languages or can happen in both languages. Um, so for example, any, any legislation is enacted in both English and French, which actually as an aside, as a legal scholar and, and a kind of someone who focuses on, on legal language, it was extraordinarily convenient because, you know, my civil code going to law school had a front and a backside to it. And if I looked at it one way, I was reading it in French, and if I flipped it, I was reading it in English. And so, oh
Speaker 3 00:22:46 Wow. You
Speaker 0 00:22:46 Could just look up Article two 70 and you'll read it in French about, you know, civil responsibility and you flip it and you can see the translation in English. So the technical terms, the, the legal terms, you, you had that immediately at your fingertips. So that was kind of a fun, um, a fun experience. And then for your, for the, the, the second part of your question, I guess the jurisdiction, it really depends on where things are being tried, but if the, if it turns out, um, that it's Quebec jurisdiction, then yeah, it will be, it will be civil, um, it will be civil, uh, civil law.
Speaker 3 00:23:26 And would a cross, would it ex uh, uh, would testimony on the stand in court be, I guess it would be in the preferred language of Yeah, whoever's being asked the questions.
Speaker 0 00:23:36 Yeah, people can speak in French or English, and then as, as for any, I think most courts here as well, you could also, you people typically would also have the right to a, a translator if, if need be, but at least French and English, there's really no, um, you wouldn't even require a translator. It would just be like one or the other. You can kind of choose freely, which whichever one you want.
Speaker 3 00:23:59 So it sounds a little bit, a little bit parallel to, um, how the US has Louisiana, which is the one state that has civil code.
Speaker 0 00:24:09 That's right.
Speaker 3 00:24:10 But, but without the extra wrinkle that in Louisiana people speak English, there's no issue of which language is, is being used. I mean, right. I, I suppose some people could argue that the way people talk in Louis Louisiana might sound different <laugh>, but that's just a, that's more an issue of accent. Um, and, and also I guess Louisiana is one of 50 states, uh, whereas Quebec is one of 10 provinces. So the impact of, of Quebec and its effect on the, and relations with the rest of of Canada is gonna have a, a wider area of, of impact than, than Louisiana does.
Speaker 0 00:24:48 Yeah, agreed. I think it does. I think it does impact. Just having a civil code and a civil system in Quebec impacts in many ways, the, the way, um, the way other provinces tend to do their common law. They're, they're common law, but they're almost a little bit tainted by, by civil law, if that makes any sense. There is, there is more of a codification of certain things than you would find elsewhere, maybe in a common law system. Although, to be perfectly transparent, I've never studied law in the US and I've never actually worked as a lawyer here, so I don't know exactly how that would work. But yeah, I remember our law teachers, and again, this is a while ago, don't wanna date myself too much, but, um, just saying that because it was a dual system in Canada, our common law even itself was a little bit, um, you know, a little bit influenced by, by the civil law system.
Speaker 3 00:25:38 Oh, that is really interesting. I mean, I guess it's somewhat, no, it's not quite the same, but I was thinking California and when California passes a law about environmental regulations on cars, the rest of the US kind of has to go along with it just because it's a big state with a big market. But that's a little bit different than what you're saying.
Speaker 0 00:25:55 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:25:56 Okay. Let me ask you, uh, one last question. What advice would you have for other multilingual lawyers, um, or what advice has been helpful to you over the years?
Speaker 0 00:26:09 Um, that's a, that's a great question. I remember. So I went to law school not knowing exactly what I wanted to do with my life and law school seemed like a good open option that would open a lot of doors. Um, and even at the time they had an expression in law school, which said in French, I guess, to the woman at two, like law leads to everything or anything. Um, it took a while for me to understand that to be true. It was a little bit, it wasn't necessarily the case at first. I was like, does it really lead to everything though? Like, what am I supposed to do with this? But it ended up opening a lot of doors that I didn't necessarily think would be open to me. And I do think that if, if you do have language skills, keep them up, cultivate them, because I think those will prove to be equally helpful, if not more helpful than your law degree when it comes to operating in, you know, in a law firm or anywhere else. Um, finding your niche where those skills are really needed. I think that's really, for me, been a tremendous asset in a way that I have managed to distinguish myself from colleagues who perhaps didn't have those skills. Um, so that's been, yeah, uh, uh, a piece of advice maybe to those of you who speak other languages is just keep them up.
Speaker 3 00:27:24 Oh, good. That, that is, that is helpful advice. I wish I had kept up my, my Japanese and my Spanish a little bit better. <laugh>. And let's finish up with one last question on recommendations. Is there anything you've been reading or watching or listening to or, or cooking or visiting?
Speaker 0 00:27:40 Yeah, I mean, how much time do you have? Can we expand this by another 45? Sure. Um, no, I'll keep it quick. I, Phil and I, uh, try to watch TV at night, but I fall asleep. But we recently started watching the second season of White Lotus, and I haven't, I haven't seen all of it, so I'm not gonna say anything that's gonna spoil anything. But the thing I have found in trusting is that it, it takes place in Italy and they have fantastic Italian actors. And as a, as a native Italian speaker, one of my pet peeves, if I can be honest, it's just when they, when they have Italians on show that are clearly not Italians and they just speak a really bad Italian or super thick accent, you are like, you're not fooling anyone. And these Italians are legit. They speak Italian very well, they're subtitled. And as an Italian myself, um, it's just a joy to, to listen to. So it's been kind of fun. Although the show, I mean, the show is a little bit dark, so I don't know, I haven't finished it, so I'm not endorsing the show yet, but I am endorsing the fact that, um, they're featuring some, some very lovely Italian speakers.
Speaker 3 00:28:48 Oh, that's good to know. I would not have have known that. Um, and for my recommendation, I'm gonna recommend something that I have not yet watched, but, which somebody else just told me about. Um, there's a show, I think on Netflix called 1899. Have you heard of it? No. And it has something to do. It, it's apparently takes a very bizarre, unexpected turns something akin to lost. But the, it starts off, it's set in 1899 with a bunch of immigrants on a boat in the ocean, and they, they are from different countries, so they're all speaking different languages, which means you have to, and sort of understanding each other and sometimes not understanding each other. And you have to follow along with subtitles. And to me that seems like a really, um, compelling, uh, type of, of thing to watch. And it, it reminded me of that Japanese movie that won the Oscar or was nominated for the Oscar Drive mm-hmm. <affirmative> in which the, the main character is a playwright and he creates these plays where the characters are speaking to each other in different languages, so they're not even understanding each other, but then they're subtitles projected behind them and it's kind of a device. And that's within the movie that's like, plays within the movie. So, um, this sounds somewhat similar, so I'm curious. So I'm gonna watch that next.
Speaker 0 00:30:10 Oh, that sounds cool. Uh, I'll add that to my list as well, once we can get through it. It takes us a while for me, you know, to get through a series <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:30:18 Yes. This is assuming that, that either of us has time to actually watch anything. Yeah. Okay. Tanya, thank you so much for taking the time to join me today. We'll include any relevant links from this episode in the show notes. Uh, I wanna remind our listeners to subscribe to the US Law Essentials Law and Language Podcast on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Himalaya, or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can also listen to all episodes on US law essentials.com. And if you have any questions, comments, reactions, ideas, et cetera, we always love hearing from our listeners, you can contact us by email at daniel us law essentials.com or through the US Law Essentials Facebook group or LinkedIn Group. Thanks for listening to us Los Angeles Law and Language Podcast and stay essential.
