Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the us law essentials law and language podcast, the legal English podcast for non-native English speakers that helps you improve your English, listening, improve your legal English vocabulary and build your knowledge of American legal culture.
Speaker 3 00:00:20 Welcome to us law essentials law and language podcast. I'm your host, Steven Horowitz. Uh, is there a topic, a case, something in the legal news you'd like to hear us talk about in a future episode or perhaps a multilingual lawyer or cross-cultural law professional, you think we should interview? You could let us know by emailing Daniel, us law, essentials.com or also by posting in the us law essentials, Facebook or LinkedIn group. We wanna talk about what you wanna hear, and if you're interested, there are likely many other people who are also interested in the same topic. Plus we'll mention your name in the podcast. So please do connect with us. Okay. Today's episode continues our series of interviews with multilingual lawyers and today's guest is professor John. Dundon a professor of legal English at Georgetown law and a colleague and friend of mine. John is also currently a PhD student in sociolinguistics in Georgetown university's linguistics department. He has also previously served as co-director of Fordham law. School's legal English Institute and did a master's in applied linguistics at Columbia university's teachers college. Prior to that, he worked for eight years as a private equity lawyer at several large New York law firms. On top of all that, he's been to almost 90 different countries in his lifetime. That's not 19 that's 90, 90. Welcome John. It's so nice to have you as a guest.
Speaker 4 00:01:57 Thank you so much, Steven. It's great to be here. I'm so happy. I could do this with you.
Speaker 3 00:02:02 Okay. What, what language are we gonna gonna do this? Interviewing
Speaker 4 00:02:05 <laugh> hopefully English. Okay. <laugh> OK.
Speaker 3 00:02:09 I'm gonna stick with English then. OK. I could, I could sort of stumble through in Japanese and maybe Spanish, but I don't, I don't know that those are either of those are on your list.
Speaker 4 00:02:20 No, I could probably understand you if you were speaking in and then I could cobble together something in my responses in French, but I would embarrass myself. <laugh> um, <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:02:32 So, so you speak English and you speak some French or you studied French. What other languages do you speak or have you studied?
Speaker 4 00:02:40 I have studied a few languages all for reasons of marriage. My wife is from a part of the world, central Asia, that serendipitously has very high degrees of multilingualism. So among other languages, my wife is a native Persian speaker and Russian speaker, which are both very fun languages to study. I've probably done the most with Persian. Um, I studied at NYU, um, in their continuing education department for a number of years. Um, I'm also learning Hungarian right now, um, because I Hungarian. Yeah, I'm hoping to, uh, believe it or not. Naturalize is a Hungarian citizen through my grandmother, which requires two things. One is you've gotta cobble together all of the documents to prove that you are a direct descendant of a Hungarian citizen. And at each stage of the dissent, through each generation, the mother and father were married at the time the baby was born.
Speaker 4 00:03:42 So that requires a lot of documents. And then you have to go to the, um, the embassy or consulate and conduct an interview in Hungarian. Oh, so I've been learning Hungarian for that purpose. Yeah, it's a little, in many ways being interviewed in a language in an official setting is probably the most terrifying example of language use, but from a language learning perspective, it's really interesting cuz it, it is in many ways, a very narrow language learning task. Um, of course it would be helpful to read and write Hungarian. Um, but fundamentally the skill I need is speaking and in particular speaking about myself and why I would like to become a Hungarian citizen. So, um, it's the narrowest learning task I've ever had as a language learner. Um, but it's been a lot of fun
Speaker 3 00:04:31 And then hopefully you'll get to, once you're a citizen of Hungary, you'll get to go there and actually use it, uh, in, in the country itself. Um
Speaker 4 00:04:39 Sure, sure. And I'm hoping to do that even before I do the interview with any luck, I'll be able to take some classes there this summer in person, we'll see how the COVID situation is.
Speaker 3 00:04:49 Um, my, my brother lived in, in Hungary a number of years ago after college. And the one thing that I learned about Hungarian, two things, one is that it's a very difficult language to learn <affirmative>, um, or it's a more challenging language to learn. And the other is that it's actually most closely connected to finish to the language of Finland rather. And Stoia rather than any other romance languages or European countries nearby.
Speaker 4 00:05:17 Yeah. I've learned quite a bit about the family. That Hungarian is a member of believe of or not the languages that language family has about depending on how you count between 20 and 30 members and the two that are closest to Hungarian, believe it or not are spoken in Siberia. Um, little bit east of the Euro mountains, way, way, way, north, almost at the Arctic circle, there are two languages there. One is called Monty and one is called haunty or one's called Manchi and one is called haunty. Uh, there each one is, is endangered with just a few thousand speakers, but those are officially Hungarian's closest relatives.
Speaker 3 00:05:51 Wow. That there must be a real story behind it that that maybe we can dig into that another episode. Um, okay. So Hungarian, French, English, Persian, Russian
Speaker 4 00:06:03 Persian, little bit of Russian. Uh, and then my wife's mother tongue is an endangered language called Bani. Uh, it's a difficult to study because there's, it's not a written language for the most part, but I, I learn it. Um, the really through osmosis being with her, hearing her talk to our, our son in the language, hearing her talk to her relatives on the phone and whenever we
Speaker 3 00:06:23 About Tostan
Speaker 4 00:06:24 Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:06:25 You're really at the nexus of a lot of language and multilingualism going on in the world. You said you've been to almost 90 countries. How quickly can you name them off?
Speaker 4 00:06:37 It would take me a while. Uh, certainly although if I, if I go by continent, I can usually remember where I've been and where I haven't been.
Speaker 3 00:06:44 What, what are the most, which ones would be the most surprising for us to learn about?
Speaker 4 00:06:49 Most people are surprised to hear. I've been to North Korea. I worked very briefly for about nine months as sort of the operations manager for, um, a, a, a travel company that takes tourists to North Korea. Their trips are currently on hiatus, at least for us citizens, but that was, um, something I did part-time while I was first getting, uh, certified to teach English. Um, I've also been to, um, places like Mo beacons, Zimbabwe that certainly many people, uh, worldwide go to, but, but it's not a place a lot of Americans go to. I've also been all over central Asia because that's where my wife is from. Um, uh, most of the other countries I've been to are probably places that at least some of your listeners may have been to, but those are some of the good ones.
Speaker 3 00:07:37 Oh, wonderful. So you really are a world traveler. People talk about being a world traveler and like, you know, you go to Paris, you go to London, you go to Beijing. But, um, I feel like we could, we could really cover the globe if we, if we made a map of all the places you've been to <laugh>. Um, okay, so now let's talk about your career because your career is law related. Um, but there's three very sort of distinct yet overlapping parts. Um, there's the law part where you worked for law firms for eight years. Um, and then there's the legal English teaching part, which you've done for the last several years and are are doing right now. And then there's also the linguistic part, which you've studied, but you're really just getting into now. Um, uh, let's, let's start off talking about your law career. How, how did you decide to practice law?
Speaker 4 00:08:32 Well, um, something, some of your, uh, listeners in the us probably know, but maybe not so much your listen nurse outside the us is for many college graduates in the United States. Law school is often seen as a default option for people who think of themselves as being smart, but who are afraid of numbers, uh, and don't really have any marketable skills with business or science. So that was definitely the category I fell into. I majored in French and philosophy, both extremely interesting, but very difficult turned into a, uh, a real career. So law school is always kind of what I thought I'd do, um, fell into my first job after law school, sort of my accident I interviewed at, at a, at an excellent firm as a third year, um, and worked in the Washington DC office, primarily doing work for their New York office and my first major transaction. Uh, you know, I was just sitting around minding my own business in a few months in, I was put on a massive private equity fund formation matter that took almost a whole year. Um, and once I finished with that transaction, that's kind of what I was. I was a private equity lawyer and continued at that firm. And then two other firms, uh, eventually moving to New York.
Speaker 3 00:09:47 Wait, what is, what is private equity and what is fund formation fund formation or fund formation? <laugh>
Speaker 4 00:09:54 Well, it's pretty funny because we would always say fun with funds, which was, you know, some people would say it was ironic, although all else, you know, if I could go back and do my career again, I probably would pick the same practice area, private equity. You'll often hear if you look at a law firm website, a big law firm in a city like New York or London, and you go to their, um, attorney by, and you look at partners who do mergers and acquisitions. That's sort of the big engine of a corporate practice at any law firm. Um, many, uh, mergers and AC M and a lawyers, mergers and acquisitions lawyer do that kind of work primarily for corporate clients, but there's a whole other side to it. There's a big group of clients out there called private equity clients. These are companies, they take big, big chunks of money from institutional investors, and they use that money to buy entire companies and usually reorganize them and sometimes combine them with another company and redo their finances and then try and sell them for a profit for to 10 years later.
Speaker 4 00:10:58 So at many law firms, private equity clients are a big engine of, um, of revenue. And before a private equity fund can go buy and sell companies, it has to be formed. It has to be created. And then money has to be collected from investors or commitments to contribute money when that money is needed. So it happens once in the life of a private equity fund. That's what I did. And then the fund is passed over to the mergers and acquisitions team, and they do all of its deals for the next five to 10 years. And that's really where all the revenue comes. So it's a pretty narrow practice area, even among the really big firms, not all big firms, have a strong private equity fund formation team. I would say, even in Manhattan, you know, it was no more than a hundred or at most 200 lawyers who were known as being really, really good at it.
Speaker 4 00:11:49 I would tend to see the same people all the time. Um, but it was, uh, the one thing I'll say about it, I, that, that, that made it a, a, a more pleasant area of law is when you're doing a mergers and acquisitions deal, when you're buying or selling a company you're sort of in a zero sum game with the other side, what's good for you is bad for them. And vice versa, many times when you're doing private equity fund for the other side, are your clients, clients, it's someone else who's gonna invest money with your clients. So everyone is kind of on the same team and things never get nearly as hostile as they often do on, um, an M and a deal. So that's one thing I really liked about it.
Speaker 3 00:12:30 And what, when, when you were working at the law firm, what was your day to day work? Like? Were you talking to people? Were you writing, were you reading
Speaker 4 00:12:41 It? Was it something I did not appreciate before I began practicing law? And this is something I teach my students in. One of my classes is so much of your day is spent not, you know, drafting contracts, but it's spent communicating with people, typically written communication. You know, what's spent two hours writing an email, that's, you know, the email's going to 130 people and it has to be perfect and it has to be have all of the information so that it's not incomplete, but can't be too long so that people don't read it. It has to be just the right own, um, you know, just the right level of detail. Um, so I would spend a lot of my day communicating. Um, but of course also conference calls typically the day of a private equity lawyer, we would always say, no client gets to the office and immediately calls their lawyer.
Speaker 4 00:13:30 So the client gets to the office, does their day of work. And then as a day is winding down, they call the lawyer to give the lawyer something to do overnight. So often my mornings would be kind of quiet. And if I had something that was due, that wasn't urgent, I could work on that, but really we would always say our day kind of would begin at 5:00 PM when the client would call the partner and then the partner would call us. And then we would have, you know, eight to 10 hours of work doing whatever needed to be done to get it turned around for the client by the next morning.
Speaker 3 00:14:02 Oh, wow. That I do remember when I worked at a big law firm, they told me you can control what time you come in in the morning. You can't control what time you leave <laugh> is that very true? People would come in on the little bit on the late cuz of that. Uh, but because, you know, you'd been working late at night. Yeah. Um, so you went from law to legal English. How, how did that go? How did that happen? Yeah,
Speaker 4 00:14:27 So that happened. Um, I, when it was time for me to stop being a lawyer, I took a plunge into getting, uh, in the United States aids. We call it a TESOL certificate, teaching English to speakers of other languages. Um, it's a non-degree program. I obtained a TESOL certificate. I took an excellent, excellent, uh, part-time program at Columbia teachers. College took about nine months. Um, it's while I was doing that, that I was working part-time as an operating officer for a North Korea travel company. But, uh, I, I, I, that was sort of my first foray into real, uh, applied linguistics and, and teaching. I had a, a practicum, I learned about PE logical, legal English, second language acquisition, really a sort of a foundation in, in, in applied linguistics. And then after I completed the program, it went from August to may. Um, I dropped everything and I went to south Asia and I taught in India in Tomal Nadu at a nursing college.
Speaker 4 00:15:30 And then I at a Buddhist monastery in Sri Lanka. Um, I wanted to get teaching experience and it's often very difficult to get sort of your first paid job in anything. So many people told me, well, you need to volunteer first and then you can get your first job. So I thought, why not have my cake and eat it too? I'll do some volunteering and I'll also get some travel out of it. So I traveled and taught for four months and came back to New York. And the, the teaching jobs just fell off trees. I, I, I was, I had to turn positions down because it's a very high demand position in a city, like, like New York.
Speaker 3 00:16:05 And then how did it shift from English teaching to legal English?
Speaker 4 00:16:09 So I was just teaching, um, English has a second language to adults at community colleges, primarily in the New York area. And then, um, about, I, I guess it must have been during that first semester, I was connected with an assistant Dean at Fordham law school who had seen a need, uh, at Fordham law, many, you know, many law schools have in the us, particularly those in big cities where they had many students who were perfectly qualified academically to, um, enroll, but who just needed to work on their English a little bit and didn't want to go into just another academic English program, sort of generic academic English was they thought very boring. So, um, I helped her create, um, an in-house ESL program at the law school that was really legal English, tailored to folks who hoped to study and get an M in the United States. So I was connected with her and we did a lot of planning. And then starting, I guess it must have April of 2017 once I've been teaching for about a year. Um, we formerly launched the program, um, and started accepting applications to begin the following fall. Uh, and I did that for five semesters and it was fantastic.
Speaker 3 00:17:28 And, and now you teach at Georgetown law school and you teach legal English. What core courses between the, between what you taught at Fordham and what you teach at Georgetown? What, what kinds of courses did you teach? What kinds of topics? So
Speaker 4 00:17:42 At, at both schools, I've, uh, there's been some commonalities when I was at, um, Fordham law. I co-taught a class that was sort of a general introduction to the us legal system plus legal English on the side. And then I, I also taught a class, um, that was meant to be a parallel class, to all of the substantive classes that the students would have throughout the semester. So it was legal English, but they had a contractor drafting class and we would do legal English for contract drafting. And the students had a class that was called private law about torts and contracts. So we, we covered the legal English of torts and contracts during the semester as well. Um, it was things like that. And now that I've been at Georgetown law, I've taught a number of classes that have a lot of overlap. Um, <affirmative>, you know, the main class we have as perhaps some of your listeners may know is our, our legal English, um, our, our legal English class, which in semester one is based off of the law of torts, particularly negligence, where we teach the students about torts and also all of the language, uh, and concepts that come along with that.
Speaker 4 00:18:49 And master two is, uh, criminal procedure. I've also taught, uh, a class on constitutional law, which is not a language class per se, but it is a class aimed at students who are still learning English. So we throw, throw in a lot of linguistic concepts there. The class
Speaker 3 00:19:07 Would think, even if you're not even if you're teaching, if you're teaching a substantive law class like constitutional law, and it's not intended to be a legal English class, I would think there are a lot of ways that coming from an ESL teaching background and having, uh, an understanding of linguistics that the students, if their non-native English speakers would benefit a lot from, from the way you teach <affirmative>.
Speaker 4 00:19:31 Yeah. I think one thing that I learned as an ESL teacher is before I begin to cover a topic, um, I spend a lot of time thinking about what background information my students have and more importantly, what sort of background information they're lacking. Um, there are gonna be concepts and cultural references and vocabulary that they're just not going to know. And being aware of that, going into teaching a class on constitutional law helped me teach the substantive law better because I've, I'm just thinking more about, you know, the idea that we have these negative rights in the United States, as opposed to positive rights they have somewhere else and how the constitution is there to limit the government, not to establish the government so much. Um, things like that really infuse the way I, I, I, I teach a class like constitutional law and I, I, I, I think it's been fairly successful. Um,
Speaker 3 00:20:25 And then, uh, for your contracts drafting class, what's, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, what's that like?
Speaker 4 00:20:30 Yeah. So my big class is called contract drafting, and it is a class. It is in many ways, the things I wish someone had told me before I started working at a large law firm. Um, you know, many of our students will end up practicing the law of their home country in their native language, not really having anything to do with us law. Some we'll go back home and, um, become a professor in their home country. But for those students who do end up practicing us law, we tend to find that more likely than not, they'll be thing transactional law. It's just easier as an international lawyer to do transactional law than to litigate into us court. And the way transactional law is done here, is it really so different from the way you would draft a contract in any other language? So it is a class that is aimed at bringing students up to speed on what happens at a large us law firm. How do we think about drafting contracts? How do we communicate about contracts and how can we give the, um, give our colleagues and clients, the feeling that they're being helped by a professional? So we, we cover a lot of topics in professionalism as well.
Speaker 3 00:21:47 So your, your experience with legal English is, seems fairly kind of broad and diverse. And, and the term legal English itself has a, has a wide variety of meanings for some people, legal English means teaching law, but doing it in English for some people, legal English means teaching the language of law on focusing more on the language. So there's a real spectrum of things. How, how would you describe or characterize your approach or view of legal English
Speaker 4 00:22:19 In your case? That's a great question. Yeah, it sort of depends on the class often when I describe what we do at Georgetown law, and perhaps you would agree, or, or maybe not is we sort of have three kinds of class, is some are much more focused on explicit language instruction. This is how we write. Um, here are some grammatical things we're gonna focus on. We have some classes like our legal English class, where we're really learning language and law at the same time we're learning towards, we're also learning the vocabulary of towards and how to do an exam answer. And then we have some that are really, you know, they look like a substantive law class, but of course we're, we're, we're slipping in quite a bit of language as well. And I, I like to think that I can teach all three and depending on which class I'm teaching, I will do more or less of the substance or more or less of the language, certainly in a class like contract drafting, we are explicitly focusing on things other than language, but of course, language pervades, everything we do. So, you know, every single slide deck I have for class, you know, one out of every, I don't know, six or eight slides we'll have language points, by the way, this thing we're talking about out, keep in mind that we're using this word and not that word. And in this context, we'll use the word I told you, but in this slightly different context, you'll see a different word and it's important not to confuse them. And this is why,
Speaker 3 00:23:44 So you work and you work primarily with LLM students, is that correct?
Speaker 4 00:23:49 Yes, we have. Um, my, my formal role is in the two year LLM program. So it's LLM students who are with us for two years. In addition to an LLM degree, they're also receiving a certificate in legal English. However, some of my classes in per particular, my contract drafting class, when we have space available for other students, one year LLM students may join. Um, in three, I suppose, a JD could join. I even had one semester where someone from the business school attempted to join. Um, often I have students who are native English speakers and just wanna learn about contract drafting for its own sake. So it is a class that I think, um, has a lot to offer, even for those who don't need to work on their English.
Speaker 3 00:24:33 And, and you've taught your contractor after class in, in other places as well, right? You've taught it, uh,
Speaker 4 00:24:40 Correct. Yes. The past two summers, I've taught it at IE law school in Spain, in Madrid, which is a very interesting school because they offer degrees in Spanish law that are taught in Spanish, but they also have degrees, uh, LM degrees in international law. And those are English medium. So it's an English medium school, even though, uh, it's located in Spain and that's always quite a bit of fun. <affirmative>
Speaker 3 00:25:07 So let me, let me ask you this. There's, you know, there's a, they're doing a lot of different things. Is it possible to describe an average day at work for you?
Speaker 4 00:25:15 Yeah, that really is difficult to do because as a professor, so much of your work is done on a schedule that you decide for yourself. I mean, I, I teach two or three classes per week. Um, next semester, those will both be on the same day. So that'll be the only day that I really have to go into the law school, but of course I spend the whole week preparing for class, reviewing my students assignments, commenting on them. And then of course, because I'm a PhD student, I'm also going over to main campus and taking classes of my own and doing and my own homework. Um, what I would say is that the difference between weekday and weekend is fairly irrelevant for me. All of my days are sort of similar in, you know, I'm in front of my computer for many hours of the day. Um, but I'm, you know, not getting up early and doing the commute on the highway, like so many of my peers who are my age, which is great. Uh, we live in the city, we don't even own a car. Uh, so, um, yeah, every, every day is a little bit different, but every day is certainly very busy.
Speaker 3 00:26:19 And, and in your PhD program, you're focused on sociolinguistics, is that correct? Correct.
Speaker 4 00:26:25 Yes. So, um, and when I say this linguistics is a, is a fairly broad field and, and the borders between the various domains of linguistics are quite fuzzy. I'm interested in the way, the domain of law and the legal system, the way language works there. And, and the way that, uh, it's a little bit different than the way language works elsewhere in society. And the kind of thing I'm talking about are, you know, there are many countries out there that use a language like English or French in their legal system and in their legal education, even though, um, very few people are speaking in that language on a day to day basis. Um, you know, I'm thinking a lot about the post-colonial context, Africa, south Asia, um, what does it do to perceptions of the prestige and utility of Hindi or Tom or whatever else when so much of the legal system in India is in English.
Speaker 4 00:27:18 Um, and of course there are a lot of negative, um, things about it. Uh, but you know, perhaps there are some positive ones as well. And a as, as I guess, um, an example of at least some actors thinking that the use of English in the legal system is positive. You can take places like the Dubai financial center or the north Saltan financial center in Kazakhstan that have created new English, English language jurisdictions within their borders, which sounds kind of crazy, but yeah, you know, the, the that's real. Yeah. It's very weird. The IFFC in Dubai. I mean, it's like a mini state within Dubai that uses English language laws. And if you don't like your decision from the court, you can appeal to court in England. Uh, I, that's crazy, you know, they've, they've adopted this of their own, but it's, it's proved very popular. My understanding is a number of companies, both from the Gulf region and from Africa are actively using that as a location to incorporate in a convenient place, to do business with a well-trusted legal system. So I'm very interested in the effect that that has on the way languages are used in other domains of society.
Speaker 3 00:28:29 And that, that has historical precedent because I mean, even in, in, in the history of English, um, you know, there's a period, I guess, where everything legal was done in French.
Speaker 4 00:28:42 Correct. Yeah. There, there's still cases that you can vine, um, on Lexus and Westlaw old English cases from like the 13 hundreds that are written in French, which is, you know, very interesting.
Speaker 3 00:28:55 Yeah. And that was the prestige language at the time. And English was the, was the common vulgar language mm-hmm <affirmative>. Huh. But that's still going on in so many different ways around in the world, in various places. And, uh, and that's, that's great that you're gonna get to dig into that and, and think about, and write about that. Yeah. Um, uh, and I'm looking forward to reading whatever you write about it. So, uh, as we, as we wrap up our discussion with you today, and thanks again so much for, for joining us, this has been our, I feel like I've taken a trip around the world just now. Um, do you have any advice that, uh, is there any advice that someone has given you that you appreciate or perhaps advice that you like to give people in general?
Speaker 4 00:29:38 Something I often tell students, particularly in so far, as many of my students are, are younger. And you hear when you're particularly at a us law school, the value and the importance of networking, and you don't really know what that means. And, you know, the impression you get sometimes from the career services offices, you just go go to some ABA conference or some lawyers conference and introduce yourself to strangers and then magically you'll get a job or something, you know, that is certainly not how networking works or, or it's not the way it works for most people. What, what, the way I tend to demystify networking is at least for me, networking has been a matter of keeping in touch with people, you know, and, you know, staying friends with them and over time, your friends and the people, you know, will be important people.
Speaker 4 00:30:38 And suddenly, you know, the random God I, who is sitting next to me in securities regulation when I was a three L is a corporate partner at a huge law firm somewhere. And we're good friends. And, you know, I don't think it's healthy to take a transactional view of friendships, obviously, but you will build a network as the people who you already start to become successful. So for me, networking has been something I would do anyway, which is keeping in touch with my friends, um, helping people when they could use help with something and organically. Many of the wonderful things that have happened to me in my career have happened to me strictly on the basis of people I knew, you know, for example, Steven, uh, you and I met in New York. And I think I have you to thank indirectly, at least for me getting my job at Georgetown, because they had certainly never heard of me. But for the fact that, uh, you mentioned my name to their, um, director at the time, I believe, um,
Speaker 3 00:31:46 I might have done that.
Speaker 4 00:31:47 Yeah, yeah. You may have done that. Yeah. Yeah. You know,
Speaker 3 00:31:51 We met, I, I remember I met you at the, I first, I mean, we met over email first, uh, because I learned there was another legal English person in New York and I was excited. And then, uh, there was a, a teacher's college Columbia, um, one day conference or event. And so I think we both agreed to that. We were both gonna go to that and that's how we met. Yeah. And there was just a lot to talk about.
Speaker 4 00:32:17 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:32:18 Yeah. So anyway, John, thank you so much for being on here. It's been, it's been such a pleasure getting to, to chat.
Speaker 4 00:32:24 Oh, thank you. This is great. I'm so happy. Um, I could finally do this with you. It's been, it's been a lot of fun and obviously I I'd love to return if there's anything anyone ever wants to hear me talk about more.
Speaker 3 00:32:34 Yeah. And, uh, uh, and even though I know you, I, I learned new things about you, which is a lot of fun. So anyway, uh, we will include any relevant links from this episode in the show notes. Uh, I wanna remind our listeners to subscribe to the us law essentials podcast on apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Himalaya, or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can also listen to all episodes on us law, essentials.com, right on the website. Uh, and if you have any questions, comments, reactions, ideas, et cetera. We always love hearing from our listeners. You can contact us through, uh, you can contact us by email at Daniel, us law, essentials.com or through the us law essentials Facebook group or LinkedIn group. So thanks for listening to us, law essentials, long language podcast, and stay essential.
