Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the U S law essentials law and language podcast, the legal English podcast for non-native English speakers. That helps you improve your English, listening, improve your legal English vocabulary and build your knowledge of American legal culture.
Speaker 2 00:00:21 Welcome to us law essentials law and language podcast. I'm your host. Steven Horowitz today's episode continues our series of interviews with multi-lingual lawyers. Today's guest is Lucas. an immigration lawyer based in New York and the founder of law. PC he's originally from Brazil, born and raised in Bella Horizonte and graduated with a bachelor in laws from the federal university of and got a master's of law, an LLM from St. John's law school in Queens, New York, where I used to work I Lucas and welcome.
Speaker 3 00:01:01 Hi Steve. Thank you for
Speaker 2 00:01:03 Inviting me. Yeah, it's good to have you here now, before we get into, I was going to see since, since we were both at St. John's together in the past, um, there's a couple interesting things about St John's that I think people don't necessarily know it's it's way out in Queens. Um, but, but Queens is cool now. Um, so one of the things, one of the interesting things about St John's is it's across the street from a neighborhood called Jamaica estates. Do you know what Jamaica estates at all?
Speaker 3 00:01:33 I lived there when I was working at central.
Speaker 2 00:01:38 If you had lived there about, I guess, about 60 years ago, what is it? 60, 60, some years ago, one of your neighbors might have been Donald Trump. Did you know that yes. Grew up in that neighborhood right across the street from St. John's university. Um, the other interesting thing, uh, one other interesting thing is, uh, have you ever heard of the rat band run DMC?
Speaker 3 00:02:06 Yes, recently
Speaker 2 00:02:10 It was what, it was the first rap band to really go mainstream in the U S and they, and they grew up, uh, right in Hollis Queens, which is right by St John's university. And when I first started working at St John's, I kept thinking of the line, uh, from one, from their songs, sucker MCs in the middle of the song. At one point they go run DIA, no I'm DMC and the place to be. I go to St. John's university. And since kindergarten, I acquired the knowledge and after 12th grade, I went straight to college and I always love that line. And I knew that from the time I was a kid. So I was excited when I finally got to be working at St. John's and I could sing it every day, but then it turned out nobody else, nobody else I worked with knew that line.
Speaker 3 00:02:59 There are many, many interesting facts there. Uh, I think they call Queens the world's borrowed, right? Because yeah, there they say, people speak more than a hundred languages as a first language in the borough Queens, because there's so many immigrants from over.
Speaker 2 00:03:17 Yeah. And there was some research done. It's the most linguistically diverse. It's the most linguistically diverse place in the world in the whole world. Yeah. It means it's a pretty amazing place.
Speaker 3 00:03:31 And I also want to make a state. I used to leave my apartment at eight 50 and I will be in the office at St. John's and 9:00 AM. So you lived close that's how close it was.
Speaker 2 00:03:43 Well, we'll put some, we'll put some links in the show notes to run DMC, sucka, MCs, and to, uh, maybe some links for St. John's as well. So people can take a look. Um, so let's see. Um, the first question I want to ask you is, uh, well, this, this might sound kind of funny to you, but have you ever lived, have you ever lived in another country, Lucas?
Speaker 3 00:04:06 Another country is relative, right? Because the United States for me is another country. I was born in and raised in Brazil. And, um, first time I came to the us as a tourist was 1997. So I was 13 years old as a kid or visit family. And then later I immigrated through United with my family.
Speaker 2 00:04:28 And then, so have you ever lived in other countries other than the United States or Brazil?
Speaker 3 00:04:35 Not live, but I spent a total of four months in Italy.
Speaker 2 00:04:40 Oh, wow. What part
Speaker 3 00:04:42 In Rome doing the study abroad program for St. John's.
Speaker 2 00:04:46 Ah, and, and how's your Italian
Speaker 3 00:04:50 Actually, I don't speak Italian, but it turns out it turns out, uh, St. John's has a campus in Rome and the staff there is fluent in Italian Americans, uh, who work there they're fluent in Italian. So it wasn't an issue to, to handle what I needed to do there. And everything related to the university was conducted in English. And I also speak Spanish and Portuguese. So it's close enough that I could communicate in Italian.
Speaker 2 00:05:18 I must have felt good. So you speak, so you speak clearly you speak English. Yes. I think that's what we're talking in right now. Um, you speak Portuguese because you're from Brazil and you speak Spanish also.
Speaker 3 00:05:31 Yes. I learned Spanish, uh, after I moved to the United States. So, uh, I started studying English in elementary school in Brazil, very early, uh, and kept studying my whole life. I did, you know, ESL courses all the way to the end. And I always, maybe one interesting fact about language and about my age. Right. I'm on millennial. The first book I read in English was Harry and that's that really helped. So I read like the seven of them. It wasn't a thing at the time. Uh, and it's, it's a lot of reading, so that was helpful. And then I started with Spanish around studying Spanish around 2012, maybe about 10 years ago. I started studying Spanish because I was already living here in the U S
Speaker 2 00:06:20 Oh, so as an adult, he didn't learn it growing up in Brazil.
Speaker 3 00:06:24 No, I learned Spanish in United. This is America speaks Spanish. Right.
Speaker 2 00:06:30 Uh, and do you speak any other languages? Are there any other languages you can communicate in at all?
Speaker 3 00:06:36 Yes. I'm learning Russian. Uh, I've been studying for four years. So see, it's a long-term commitment, like English things, elemental, like Portuguese, since I was born like English since elementary school, Spanish for about 10 years in Russian for about four years, because my wife is Russian.
Speaker 2 00:06:55 And do you speak to each other in Russian or in English or in Portuguese?
Speaker 3 00:06:59 We speak in English because that's how we communicated since we, uh, started dating. Uh, and I, her mother, right. My mother-in-law doesn't speak, speak very limited English. So, uh, we, we communicate, I try, I learned Russian because I want my daughter, I have a daughter, I want her to learn Russian as well. And I want to be able to communicate with her in Russian and with my mother-in-law. And I also have my brother-in-law and you know, my, my wife's relatives, they, they speak limited English so we can communicate, we might basic Russia then sometimes their basic English. So yeah, it's it's for family reasons. I'm learning Russian. What's
Speaker 2 00:07:40 Your, what's your study method for Russian?
Speaker 3 00:07:44 Uh, I started with Duolingo
Speaker 2 00:07:46 Duo lingo. My children have been using that. They just play around with it and they pick random languages like German and they learn a little bit of that.
Speaker 3 00:07:56 Yeah. I'll say I think one thing that I know I'll advice, you know, people in general is to focus, right. I think even in dual language, you see all, they have like tiny language, less. I, then you start like some 20 of them and you never finish. I was starting only one. And I went all the way to the end. So I did every single exit. It took me four years, but I, what I finish it because, you know, it's, it's hard, it's a lot of content.
Speaker 2 00:08:25 So just do a lingo
Speaker 3 00:08:27 And the other no after that, because it just gives you the basics. It's good to learn the Cyrillic alphabet. Uh, but it's not enough. Uh it's it's a first step. Um, so my second step is children's books.
Speaker 2 00:08:41 We talk about, I always try to tell my law students to study children's books
Speaker 3 00:08:46 And they are so catchy. That was something like may embarrass myself here, singing children's songs. Uh, but they're so catchy. They like stick to your head, you know?
Speaker 2 00:08:58 And that's the, that's why they're so great.
Speaker 3 00:09:01 Yeah. And I have a one year old daughter, her birthday is next week. So now she she's babbling starting to talk and sing her songs and just start to repeat some things. And, um, I'm reading children's books. So the three little pigs I can, I can go through it. Like, for me, it's like painful, you know, but I, I grade through slowly, but that's how we start. And it's basic vocabulary
Speaker 2 00:09:24 Painful because the story is painful and you feel bad for the Wolf or hard to read the Russian. You're not used to reading it quickly. And it's kind of hard to work through for yourself.
Speaker 3 00:09:36 It's hard and because it's another alphabet. So, um, you know, used the Latin alphabet and English, Portuguese, and Spanish. And so have to, you know, read with another alphabet that's painful, but it's, it takes
Speaker 2 00:09:49 Practice. That's great practice. It must be really good.
Speaker 3 00:09:52 And it's better to start with something simple, like three little pigs then to try to read the no Alexander Pushkin or something pretty more complicated.
Speaker 2 00:10:00 Could you read a contract to me in Russian?
Speaker 3 00:10:03 No,
Speaker 2 00:10:04 I could do that. That would probably help me fall asleep. I would think
Speaker 3 00:10:09 It's kind of, uh, the sound of it. You know, I don't think it's the type of sound that makes it go to maybe a romance language. Right. We'll make her go to sleep like more pleasant, like a Russian can be a more strong sometimes. Um, I got , you know, like it's hard to go to sleep with that, but a contrast, I think contrast can make people go to sleep. Right. And no matter what language they're written then,
Speaker 2 00:10:34 But, but Portuguese is a more Portuguese has a more relaxing feel to it. Right.
Speaker 3 00:10:39 yeah, I think so. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:10:44 Okay. So let's talk about your work a little bit. So, um, now I like to ask lawyers, how do you explain to non-lawyers what you do, but that's often because a lot of the work that lawyers do is kind of hard to explain to regular people or to, or to like your children or something, but immigration law sounds pretty straight forward. You help people need to deal with immigration issues. So what, what do you tell people about your work?
Speaker 3 00:11:16 Yeah, I guess it's well way to explain it and make it simple is to talk about the results, right? The result that people want in immigration law, it's a visa, a green card, or you have a citizenship. So I know people may not know, but a green card, it's a popular name for a document called a legal permanent resident card that, uh, allows people to immigrate. So that's, that's, you know, uh, the, the green card is a document that shows the status of illegal immigrant. So either the person is a visitor. When are these, those coming here temporarily? It's an immigrant with a green card. What is a citizen? And, and that's, that's what I'm doing. I'm representing people in the process of obtaining these, this green cards in your sentence.
Speaker 2 00:12:03 Is there sort of a common pattern to the kinds of, of clients that, that you tend to work with? Are they working with companies? Are they, are they marrying, are they getting married or is it a whole wide range of different situations?
Speaker 3 00:12:17 It's a whole wide range of different situations. And that's, that's what I love about it because people, I listen to people's life stories, right. From so many different backgrounds, uh, there are basically four ways that people immigrate. Uh, and, and that's not from me. That's, you know, John Oliver.
Speaker 2 00:12:39 Yeah. John sort of comedian TV show. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:12:43 Yeah. So one in one of his episodes, he talks about immigration and I think he's explains it very well. Of course he was, I believe he had very good, uh, immigration lawyers like reviewing it, but he explains it in a fun way, in a very simple way. What a us immigration law is. Okay,
Speaker 2 00:12:59 I'm sorry. I was going to say he's from he's from the UK. So he had to deal with immigration. He's had to deal with immigration himself.
Speaker 3 00:13:07 Yes. Because he, he came with a work visa and then a green card through work and he puts it like this, uh, the waste to immigrate it's good luck, bad luck, family, and work. So good, good luck is the visa lottery or the green card lottery. So some countries have that. So you're just lucky because they were selected in the lottery, uh, bad luck it's, uh, asylum or, uh, immigration for humanitarian purposes because you're being persecuted basically, you're in a bad situation in your home country. And you're asking for humanitarian help, that's bad luck and family, you know, obvious, uh, you have relatives in United States and work. Right. Uh, so, so it's very different. Like when, when you hear a story about a silent, it's a very sad story. And when you hear a story about a marriage, for example, you have a fiance visa, right.
Speaker 3 00:14:05 And you have to tell that love story in a statement to submit it with your application. And I like to listen to the stories and I'm writing the love story to put together with the application. So look how different it is. You either writing a tragedy or when you're preparing an asylum application, I have to put that story together and it can be very painful for people to tell that story, or you're writing a love story, right. Or it's about work, you know, and people are pursuing a professional dream or, uh, it's just luck because they got in a lottery. So
Speaker 2 00:14:41 That's really interesting. I mean, there's a lot of storytelling and that's a big, that's a theme that I've noticed has grown bigger in the legal field is, uh, I know law schools, there's a whole, um, there's a conference every year on legal storytelling. And that's, that's recognized now is such an important part of being a lawyer. It's not just analyzing the law, it's telling stories.
Speaker 3 00:15:05 Yeah. Imagine how much it is to expand an acorn. Like I've been persecuted to like an Oak, right. And you have to make that little seed grow and tell the story in a way that shows all the drama and sometimes physical, mental, psychological violence that was involved. So, so you really have to expand on the who, what, when, how and why, and tell the story.
Speaker 2 00:15:37 Do you, do you have a favorite story that you like to, that you're, that you can talk about and that you like to share?
Speaker 3 00:15:44 Well, there's issues, there are issues of confidentiality, right? So it's all about those. Um, yeah. Some, um, yeah, so let's, I got to get, I'll say, you know, I'm, I'm concerned about, you know, selling something that, you know, my reveal, somebodies identity, um, another, another type of story, just to give an example, it's about extraordinary ability. So that's the green card path because you you'll come to work in the United States with a certain type of visa. It's an old visa because you have extraordinary ability in an area. So one story that, uh, it's, it's public, uh, um, we're talking about Donald Trump and Queens, his wife, Melania obtain a work visa for having extraordinary ability as a model. So that's, that's a story, right. A public figure. Um, so it could be a writer, it could be a chess player. It could be a cook. So imagine somebody that has an extraordinary ability in something, an artist, it's a very, it's sometimes called an artist visa, but it can be for athletes. For many things.
Speaker 2 00:16:54 I just talked with, uh, I interviewed, uh, um, uh, immigration paralegal recently named Rebecca Chen. And she mentioned, I think she mentioned the old visa and called it. She said, sometimes it's called an Einstein visa, correct?
Speaker 3 00:17:09 Yes. I've heard her that. So, but as I said for science, right, if somebody, uh, won a Nobel prize, of course they will qualify, but it doesn't need to be that high. So calling a nice thing. These are sometimes it gives the impression that the standard it's only that level. Uh, but, uh, it's not only Einstein level, you know, uh, it's coming of Trump as a motto, or it could be an athlete, you know, as I said, it could be many different, uh, a photographer, for example, uh, maybe I can, you know, just say like type of work that people did, the, um, marketing, you know, as a photographer for companies like Nike, for example.
Speaker 2 00:17:52 Right. Very specialized
Speaker 3 00:17:54 Yeah. Professional photographer that would do that type of professional photography for marketing campaigns can be considered kind of concern. Nutcase was considered a person of extraordinary ability
Speaker 2 00:18:07 When, um, oh, wait, no, no, scratch that. Yeah. So what does, what does an average day of work look like for you? What kinds of things are you doing during the day? Or how, how are you spending your time
Speaker 3 00:18:20 Today? I think was, has been like exact except for, uh, this podcast, right. That it's a very unusual, um, but, uh, let's say I started with a consultation at nine in the morning. I did it a video consultation, um, and a person had questions about possibilities. Uh, the person, uh, it's a foreign student here in the United States and is, uh, doing a program called opt stands for optional practical training. That's based on an internship and she wanted to talk about, uh, possibilities for work nieces. And so, yeah, so, so w I had a consultation, so I started my day with that in the morning. Then I was replying to emails, uh, about also work. These are, but that way it's a person who is already in a, not a visa green card is a person who was, uh, the company is applying for a green card. So we needed a lot of information to prepare those. So, uh, information about the company, the size of the company, number of employees, and, uh, details about the position. So I exchanged a few emails, asking what I needed, and then they just replied, I'm going to get back to that as soon as their vendor year. Um, so yeah, sometimes a call would a video, an email, so that, that would be a normal day. And then before he realized that he's gone preparing documents,
Speaker 2 00:19:54 Because let me ask you another question several years ago, um, under the Trump administration, there was an executive order issued that was known as the Muslim ban. Um, do you remember that?
Speaker 3 00:20:07 Yes,
Speaker 2 00:20:08 I do. What do you, what do you remember about that time from an immigration law perspective?
Speaker 3 00:20:14 Yes. So there were many people who were affected by that executive order. I did not work directly with a person who was affected by that executive order. Uh, but, uh, the order was, uh, there were, there was litigation, uh, about it. The order was, uh, suspended, um, by federal judges at the time. Um, and the, and, and I'm familiar with it because I read it and, you know, I studied and it was awful. Like it should have been suspended because the language there in the, in that executive order was probably not written by an attorney because it was used more in a journalistic way, uh, then in a technical way.
Speaker 2 00:21:02 Oh, interesting. Like what
Speaker 3 00:21:05 Legal terms that have a specific meaning and the definition and the immigration nationality act, for example, entry and admission, uh, were used, uh, in a way that is not consistent with the definition and the immigration and nationality act. So probably it was not reviewed by the department of justice before it was issued the executive order. And they probably, I don't know, maybe stepped down and just wrote it and then they drop sign it. It was awful. So, so, so that why, that's why it was suspended. Uh, and later there was a second and a third version of it. Uh, they, they improved it a little bit, but the, that I believe was February or January of 2017, that first version was awful. And yeah, of course it was all like blocked by the courts.
Speaker 2 00:21:58 Um, let me ask you another question about immigration law, which is if, if somebody wants to be an immigration lawyer, uh, what would you recommend to them as steps to get into the, into the field
Speaker 3 00:22:13 Focus? And, uh, I think
Speaker 3 00:22:18 My theme, I think with technology today, right, you go online, you open your browser and you you're researching something, the internet it's so easy to get distracted. You, you get your phone, you have so many apps. And, and I think our brain is getting wired to lose focus, and we start a lot to do a lot of things and we don't finish anything. So, uh, I think it's not specific to immigration, but so to, uh, the law practice in general, it's better to focus on one practice. We have an expression in Portuguese. Uh, I'm going to say it in English, but it's like, uh, the duck, right? He, he walks, he flies in, uh, his swims, but he walks poorly. He flies poorly and his swim sport, at least. So you're the one it'd be like a duck that does like everything, but you don't do anything, um, correctly. So it's better to the one thing and do it correctly, or doing the best way possible then to try to do whatever,
Speaker 2 00:23:22 You know, the, the English language equivalent of that phrase of that expression. Or maybe you've heard it, um, Jack of all trades master of none.
Speaker 3 00:23:31 Oh, yes, yes. Jack of all trades master of none, none. Um, so I think you don't want to be that as an attorney. So I, I believe there are some great general practitioners out there. Uh, maybe judges need to have more that encyclopedic, um, knowledge. Right. But, but I think it's just better to, to focus on one thing. And in my practice, I think is already very broad, as I said, doing humanitarian immigration business integration, family-based immigration, some attorneys, immigration attorneys focus on only one path to immigration. I don't three and also worked on issues with, uh, the lottery as well. Uh, and it's already brought, uh, so, so, so I see many people trying to be everywhere and it's so much information to, you know, keep up with. So you're going to miss something if it tried to the many different areas. So I wouldn't do, if somebody has an issue with criminal law, for example, and then say, well, will this affect me in my immigration case? Yes, they can talk about it, but I wouldn't go to criminal court to represent a person in criminal court because it's very specific and it's better. I would recommend that that person hires a criminal attorney, uh, that does only that because, you know, we'll be better positioned to, you know, more familiar with the court practice to, to do something like, uh, representing the person in criminal court.
Speaker 2 00:25:13 Well, let me ask you about language again. Um, how much, uh, I assume since you're based in New York, most of your work you're doing is in English, but how much do you use your Portuguese and your Spanish and even some Russian in your work? Do you have, do you have occasion to use it?
Speaker 3 00:25:31 Yes. Um, the consultation I did this morning was all in Portuguese because it was with the resident client. Their client speaks English fluently, but it's just awkward to speak in English with a person. You know, who's speaking your native language and I guess the person feels more comfortable with it. Um, there is, uh, uh, big maybe the biggest, uh, community in the us, right? Uh, that's not English speaking is the Spanish speaking community and also in New York. So I have clients who are Spanish speaking and they don't speak very good English. So I communicate with them in Spanish. Um, depends, you know, maybe once a week, sometimes more often that depends and, uh, Russian less because my Russian, it's not good enough to, uh, have a conversation at a professional level. I'm still working, but I can say the basis. And I have spoken with the Russian speaking clients, but I spoken English.
Speaker 2 00:26:39 Do you have any advice on how to find, or how to pick a, an immigration lawyer, what to look for
Speaker 3 00:26:49 Referrals, referrals, because even if you asked me about other immigration lawyers that I know personally, um, or lawyers in general, right. Um, it's, it's hard for me, uh, to know the quality of their work. So, uh, if, if you have a referral from a former client, I think that's the best way. And that's how most people get to meet because somebody who I represented, then they talk and they immigrants. And then they, if they hear somebody who needs immigration or they say, don't talk to look like he worked in my case. And, uh, you know, uh, then they can talk about my work and maybe, you know, hallway, uh, um, ask the answer to their questions and, and, you know, follow up. Uh, but, but yeah, um, it's, it's hard to know, you know, uh, how people work, you know, unless they have knowledge of their work. So like, if you'll find someone online, people can, sometimes people will find me in Google. Um, but they could find anybody else in Google. So I think I do a good job, but I don't know about all this.
Speaker 2 00:28:00 Sometimes you see ads on the subway or on billboards on the highway for, or on TV for lawyers. Do you think you'll ever have a TV ad?
Speaker 3 00:28:10 No. Uh, I never, I never spent a dime in, in March because I mean, I can put my name out there. I think it helps. Uh, but well, just because somebody, his name is on the outdoor or on TV, uh, you don't know how the work is. So I, and I, I guess, uh, many people would, uh, put like results, right. In an alter, or sometimes you see personal injury lawyers, like, oh, got me $10. And then you have kind of a testimony of a former clients say, oh, this attorney got me that much money. So at least to have, you know, somebody who was a former client talking about. So I, you know, people could be like in ads everywhere. I don't know if they're good or not.
Speaker 2 00:28:53 Right. Okay. Well, it has been so great having you on here, Lucas. I really appreciate your taking some time out of your day to come and talk on the podcast with me and with our listeners.
Speaker 3 00:29:05 Thank you very much for having me. It was great.
Speaker 2 00:29:08 Okay. So, uh, thanks everybody for joining us on this edition of us law. Central's law and language podcast and stay essential.
