Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the U S law essentials law and language podcast, the legal English podcast for non-native English speakers that helps you improve your English, listening, improve your legal English vocabulary and build your knowledge of American legal culture.
Speaker 1 00:00:25 Welcome to us law Central's lawn language podcast. Today's episode is part of our series of interviews with multi-lingual lawyers. Um, today's guest is Brenda Brenda McKinney, a lawyer at the New York city council, where she works as legislative counsel to two committees. She is also an adjunct law professor at Vermont law school. And with Vermont law school's national center on restorative justice. Brenda is a graduate of Loyola university, Chicago school of law, where she was a child law fellow. Uh, she holds an LLM from Otago university in New Zealand and a master's of education from Boston college and for undergraduate, she went to so, uh, to St. Olaf college in Minnesota, where she majored in economics and Nordic studies. So, hi, Brenda. Thanks for, thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 2 00:01:20 Hi, Steven. I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1 00:01:22 Um, now, before we get started with the interview, um, we always start with a dad joke in these interviews. Um, are you familiar with dad jokes? Yes.
Speaker 2 00:01:32 Excellent.
Speaker 1 00:01:34 Um, so in, in my, the previous episode with Brian Hersey, um, I asked him, what did one elevator say to the other? Do you know that one?
Speaker 2 00:01:45 I don't know that
Speaker 1 00:01:47 The answer is, I think I'm coming down with something. So today I'm going to ask, I'll ask you a question and just tell me if you know it or not. And then at the end of the interview, I'll, I'll go back to the joke and we'll give the answer. Okay. Got it. What do you call a fake noodle? Do you have any idea? Yes, I think I've got it. Okay. Okay. So we'll come back at the end and get to the answer of that. Okay. So now, Brenda, um, uh, have you ever lived well from your bio? It seems kind of obvious, but I'm gonna ask you, have you ever lived in another country before? Yes, it has. Do you want to tell me, you know, you live in the New Zealand?
Speaker 2 00:02:34 Yes. I've spent a lot of time abroad. I've spent time in over 70 countries. Wow. So, um, I, my grandparents were all from a different country from abroad and so I didn't really have family in the U S so now I was young. I was lucky that my mom sort of wanted us to have this appreciation for diversity in our heritage, so traveled a lot. Um, so on my own, after high school, I moved to Norway when I was 18. Um, and then when I was in Norway, studied abroad in Lebanon, Syria, yeah. In Jordan, and then just a short trip. And then in university, I studied in China and I went back to the university of Oslo in Norway again. Um, and then I taught in China right after college. Um, I was on the jet program, so I taught in Japan. I also did some summer camp and teaching, um, in Brazil. Um, so then I did later when I did my LLM, I did a Fulbright in New Zealand. Um, so I've been kind of, and my husband is from New Zealand, so I've been kind of all over. Yeah. But I haven't, it's such a, it's such a tiny and interesting, but you know, varied world. I, I wish that we could travel now. So, um, New York city, I feel like I get, you know, a lot of diversity and, um, I can try Georgian food right here, but I'd love. Yes, exactly. Probably why I live here.
Speaker 1 00:04:14 And do you speak any other languages?
Speaker 2 00:04:17 I do. So I'm, um, I'm fluent in her region and I started learning that when I was young, I had a Norwegian grandmother and then went to a language emergence summer camp and then lived in Norway. Um, and then when I was in Japan, um, I picked up some Japanese, I wouldn't say that I'm Pitta, Pitta or fluent. Um, I'm not good still, but, um, I can communicate so much. Thank you so much. Um, yeah, so some Japanese and then, um, bits of pieces, the last language I was actively trying to learn was Maori in New Zealand and indigenous language. Um, and then, you know, I learned German in school growing up, so a few languages, but I've always wanted to learn Spanish and need to just do it, but
Speaker 1 00:05:09 One day. And do you, and which of those languages would you say you use the most frequently or more frequently these days? If any,
Speaker 2 00:05:18 I use Norwegian with my daughter. So I use Norwegian. I sing to her and Norwegian and I use it a bit. So I keep in touch with friends in Norway. So I probably use no region. Um, but it's something that I grew up with. So I think it's, you know, it might be that portion of it. Um, Japanese, I use frequently within the jet alumni community, but it's more of like a Django English. We say as a joke, Japanese English, I'll use Japanese words in conversational English and my husband and I will do that a lot. Um, uh, dummy that's bad. We'll say where it's like dubbing,
Speaker 1 00:05:55 Your husband was on the program
Speaker 2 00:05:56 As, yeah, my husband is from New Zealand, but we met on the jet program. We were both in Japan for three years together. So we'll use some Japanese. So I'd say those languages are probably most common. Something that caught me off guard was when I was briefing what's I know we'll talk about my job as briefing a council member. I was talking to a council member about a very serious topic, um, a couple of weeks ago. And all of a sudden, I couldn't think of the word in English. I thought of it in Norwegian because I had been using Norwegian with my daughter that hasn't happened to me for many years. Um, but just I've been back in that mode. Um, and I actually had to say to him, like, this is so strange, but in Norwegian we call it, um, <inaudible> or like a language confusion. Uh, so I had some of that. So I'd say Norwegian, but for different reasons. And, um, Norwegian and Japanese,
Speaker 1 00:06:54 I remember living in Japan and as I was starting to pick up Japanese, suddenly Spanish would pop into my head. I think that's a very common kind of confusion. Right.
Speaker 2 00:07:04 And code switching, not with this, your, your, as they call it where you're switching with languages, you actually have a bigger vocabulary, but you're only accessing part of it. Um, yeah, but not with just one language, but multiple. I wish again, if I think Spanish could be useful, um, for work and things, my husband uses Spanish at work. He's a doctor, I'm a pediatrician, but, um, yeah, not, I don't use Norwegian or Japanese at work and I don't usually confuse them. So.
Speaker 1 00:07:34 Okay. So now, uh, going, turning to your work, how would you explain, how do you explain what you do to your parents? For example,
Speaker 2 00:07:43 I should start by, um, just also flagging that I'm speaking in a personal capacity today and not on behalf of the New York city council. Um, also sometimes when I say we, I referred to the council, um, but it's not me as part of the council. It's speaking to the body. It's just, um, a nomenclature thing. So, uh, thank you. And looking forward to today. Sure. So just, um, as far as like title, so I'm a legislative counsel at the New York city council council's means lawyer. Um, yep. So S so I work at the council with a C and then I see a group
Speaker 1 00:08:23 Of advisors or legislators.
Speaker 2 00:08:25 I grouped together C O U N C I L. And then I'm a council, S E L C O U N S E L a lawyer. So I'm a lawyer for the speaker or the head of the New York city council meeting. I'm on the central staff, the, this isn't how I explain it, but I'm on the main staff. Um, you know, and we have 51 politicians, and then when they leave, like I stay, I I'm part of that central staff and a lawyer. I do a lot of policy work. Um, so if I was explaining to my, or, you know, family in New Zealand, I would say I'm a lawyer for local government. And I do a lot of policy work and I work on gender issues and museums and libraries is probably what I'd say, but it's a little more complicated than I do more of them. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:09:12 So when you say city council, I mean, usually city council that people think that small time politics, but you're doing it in New York city. So it's actually pretty big time. Politics
Speaker 2 00:09:25 Say everything is local, everything is local, but yeah, so we have, um, we have, you know, eight and a half million people in New York city. And just the city we have a budget of last two is I think, $80 billion. And the year before $98 billion, 96 billion. So this year we'll see, it might be like 96 billion. So it's like a country,
Speaker 1 00:09:51 Most city councils don't necessarily have, especially smaller towns don't have a legislative council.
Speaker 2 00:09:59 Well, a lot of them, it depends. I think a lot of them, maybe the mayor and the council worked together. Um, but here it's just like the federal government. So New York is so large that three branches of government just like in the federal government, the national government and the U S um, so there is the mayor side, which is like the president, the administration, the legislative body, which is the elected officials. And we make laws, um, as a body, I support that process. And then there's the court system, the judicial system. So there's the three. So we there's the mayor right. Of New York city. And then there's the city council. We negotiate the budget together. And then the mayor is runs, you know, the health department, the schools are run by the state technically, but the city runs them. Um, you know, the mayor's in charge of the streets.
Speaker 2 00:10:54 The mayor runs the police department that we have an oversight function. So we, um, I say we as the council, but the council would, and the council members determine, you know, how that money, they negotiate the budget, where the money is going to go, and then they make sure that the money's being spent well. So we have hearings, like you see on television, you know, in Congress, you see all the, all the members sitting at a data. So kind of like up in a big desk, like a judge, um, and then asking questions to witnesses. We do the same thing here, and I plan those hearings. Um, so I work on those hearings. I write legislation, I ghost rights. So I drafted it, but it's really authored just like a clerk works for a judge. I will draft it behind the scenes for a council member. Oh, that's
Speaker 1 00:11:42 A good analogy. So it's like, we're a young law, a law school graduate might work for a judge and do a lot of the writing and research for them. And then it gets presented in the judges name. When, when a legislator, when a city council member wants to present new legislation, you'll help them figure out a lot of the wording and understanding the law around it.
Speaker 2 00:12:04 Yes. So we, and it's different at different levels, but I did encourage, if anybody's interested in this area, I'd encourage them to also look at how this works in Congress. It's much different than at the council. That there's sort of a, almost like a group of lawyers that sit in the, in the belly of Congress that just draft, they just draft the legislation. So I get a request sometimes, you know, something happens in the news. I see an article and I'm not surprised if it pertains to me that then I get a request for a bill. Um, and they say, we want to do something to fix this. So we'll look, we'll see at our level, we make sure that there aren't two people that have the same bill. Not everybody does this, not every legislative body, but you know, there's one, one prime sponsor, sometimes two that are like the drafter.
Speaker 2 00:12:52 Um, and then, you know, we make sure on the front end, we write a legal memo. Cause sometimes there are constitutional issues. Um, we're often looking at preemption, you know, do we have authority or is it the states? Like, does the state preempt or sort of Trump because it's state law that governs this, not us, we don't have authority. Um, we'll look at, you know, whether the, this is the mayor's authority, we'll always look at certain issues. And then before we draft it, because we want to make sure it makes sense. And then we go to the code and just like the tax code or code the code is really like a series of laws put together. That's just like numbered. Um, the code is like my friend. So I try to figure out where, you know, it's not like department if I worked on the transportation committee.
Speaker 2 00:13:38 So I work on the committees on cultural fairs, libraries and international intergroup relations. That's one. And then the committee on women and gender equity, I'm the lawyer to each committee. So I don't have a section of the code, like the transportation section of the code. Those lawyers might, my colleague that works on transportation knows that, that code really well. I will, um, you know, I have to figure out like a puzzle, where would this go? And then like, figure out, you know, do we have any similar laws? How, what does that worded and then figure out how to, how to draft it. And then I work with the council, I kind of do a draft and then work with the council member to make sure it's what they want. Um, sometimes the council member, you know, has worked with advocates or has an idea of what they're looking for.
Speaker 2 00:14:22 And so we'll work on it together. And then obviously you're never alone. So I have supervisors and colleagues, I can, I often go to colleagues and say, this touches on shelters, this touches on transportation, this touches on human rights, which is separate from, from even gender equity. Like, what are your thoughts on this? Have we done similar legislation? And then, you know, they'll help us, they'll help me. You know, and I, I get, um, I used to work in bill. So to only draft legislation, I didn't do the hearings. Um, the attorney, some bill drafting often contact me if they have bills related to my areas and say, you know, what is the background of this? And I can say, oh, this is, you know, there was this case and there was this law and you should look at this, we've done something similar. This is a good model.
Speaker 2 00:15:13 You can kind of use this as an example. We will often look at like, you know, we have, um, there's a program here for outdoor performances in New York city this summer because of the pandemic that, you know, and the, the council member has said this, but it's modeled after open restaurants, the program where you can eat outside on the streets, there's open performances. It's called open culture was modeled after that. So we used like a example as a baseline. You don't have to start from scratch. So it's interesting. It's like a puzzle. Um, but we do research and yeah,
Speaker 1 00:15:48 In some ways it's a little bit like contract drafting where you take, you can have sort of a template to work off of, but then you have to adapt it for a different situation.
Speaker 2 00:15:58 Yes, yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah. And I, um, and it goes, you know, again, because I work in government, there's different levels of review. So it's like in some senses, like it's comforting to me to know that I'm, you know, there's, there's people with a lot of experience in this area too, that are going to look at it. They will talk about it. Um, and you know, are there any holes, are there things I'm missing? And then because of the legislative process, we, we not only talk about how money is being spent, but any piece of legislation has to go through a hearing process, has a process be voted out of committee. So during that process, we also hear from the community and from, um, advocates and non-profits and the, and the government like, um, you know, how this bill will actually affect, you know, the council, here's how it'll affect people.
Speaker 2 00:16:46 And so then we get feedback on how to change the bill. We listened very carefully. I just listened to a hearing for the second time yesterday, listen to the whole thing again, to see what we missed for S for bill. Um, if we missed anything, but, you know, so it's, there's a process that's very intentional. Um, and I'm, I'm sort of like behind the scenes, if you see me, it's probably not, but you know, it's, um, but it's, but I appreciate being a support person. Cause I really have, I feel like I'm very lucky to work on this topics that I work on. I like these topics and they fit into my background, um, like international relations. We don't do a lot because we're doing local government, even though the United nations is in New York city. But like, if it's things come up sometimes, like if it's with Japan, I can so excited.
Speaker 2 00:17:36 Um, yeah, but I think, sorry, I was going to say, I'm getting, I'm sorry. I think I'm being tangental. Maybe you go on, this is good with my background, with my background in the committees. Um, you know, I think I'm very lucky to have committees that I am very passionate about and work in areas I'm passionate about. I've one of the coolest jobs where I get to work in areas and you actually make a difference. So I'm behind the scenes. Um, but I have a seat at the table, you know, I, I know that I get to meet with, you know, people that are making a difference and like we're contributing to making New York better. You might not see it, but like, this is how change happens in a good way.
Speaker 1 00:18:25 That's a really nice way to say it, but to think about it. Um, so you mentioned you do a lot of drafting and you know, I, in law school, um, legal writing is a big topic, but legal writing is often about writing persuasive essays, writing legal memos, that interpret things. But actually drafting legislation is a, is, uh, seems like a very different kind of skill,
Speaker 2 00:18:51 But you need both, but yes, correct. It is. Um, you need both because I do policy. Like we work on S we support the speaker with a state of the city and I do legal memos. Um, because like I work with I, sir, I work for the speaker, but I serve the chair and I serve the members of my committee. I think of it as superior customer service. I am providing to them what they need, whether it's a bill or whether it's a memo or whether it's a briefing and a background on an area. Um, and so sometimes, you know, they say, why is this issue important? Like we will help prepare, like we draft something and then, you know, that's one skill, but we also need to explain why this is important and how it fits in the conversation. And it's, it's often that type of persuasive writing.
Speaker 2 00:19:41 We still blue book book citation. So blue book is the citation book. It's blue. That's why we call it the blue book. If you ever work on a journal, um, at any law school or pick up a journal from the law school, um, you know, the journal on children and the law, or the ju you know, your law school's journal, you will see that every single line is cited. And as the U S we use the blue book, it's just a citation style. Like, you know, in LA, we still cite every line. We still have to substantiate or make sure that we can back up. Every single thing we say in memos, even if we remove the sights, we make sure that it's thorough. And I write a paper for every single hearing talking about the topic. So people know they have a briefing paper it's really for the council members, but they know what we're thinking.
Speaker 2 00:20:35 They know the background, the focus of the hearing, every single line has to be cited and it has to be thorough. So those are skills that I honed and I learned in law school. The drafting is, but I feel like you learn, it's a, it's a technical skill, and it's something you can learn on the job. Um, my office before I was a member of the office hosted, um, a conference of legislative drafters, maybe like five years ago or something from all over the country, similar opposite you have together. Yeah. And we all have our drafting guide. You can see, you know, they put together internally that team at the time guidelines that we follow there's rules internally that we follow, you know, do you capitalize this? Do not capitalize that, so those are skills you can learn on the job. But I think that the skills you're learning to write in legal writing and just in like drafting for a class, or even like, you know, legal writing generally like respond, you know, for, for an exam. For example, those are valuable skills that are very applicable. Um, the communication is very important, um, and it's applicable. And then you can learn like the nuances and the technical skills when you get to the job. Cause it's gonna, it's gonna differ by jurisdiction by where you work. Um, and you want to make sure you're going to have to, you might have to relearn it anyways.
Speaker 1 00:22:04 Oh, this is really great. So, um, now I want to ask you, um, do you have any advice that you like to give to young lawyers or to people in general?
Speaker 2 00:22:15 Yeah. I, you know, when people say I'm interested in law school, um, I have, I feel so lucky to be a lawyer, um, to have this training, but it's an investment in the United States. It's a time investment, it's a financial investment. And I think sometimes people don't understand what a lawyer is when they go to law school. I need to be a lawyer in my job. I have to be a member of the bar. So when I moved to New York, um, I was in DC. I moved to New York. I had to take a second bar exam. It was a member of a member of the Illinois bar. I'm now a member. I took the universal bar. I'm a member of the New York bar and to do it again. But, um, I, you know, but people, people, I don't want them to like get stuck in law school.
Speaker 2 00:23:01 So I ask, why are you interested in law school? Cause I don't know if people know about MPA programs, MPP programs, it is a wonderful profession. And I feel like we are very lucky to be part of this profession. There are so many things that you can do with a law degree, but it's so different in the United States than it is in other countries where law might be an undergrad degree or you can do an LLM degree. Um, so I ask why and what are you interested in? And then talk about how, you know, there are programs like you might decide if, you know, you want to live somewhere to think about the tight, like where you want to go to law school. There, there are reasons to think through attending different places. It's not just, you know, numbers, the types of law you want to go into.
Speaker 2 00:23:45 So, and I think that's a good way to open a conversation about who a lawyer actually is and what they do. I don't work for a firm. I worked for a federal judge in law school. So I've seen, you know, the, that part of the system. I worked for the federal government in DC. And so I've worked on the administrative side now I'm on the legislative side of, of, of government, um, which is like Congress working on the hill, but in New York city, um, at the local level. But you know, I'm, I don't know, I don't think I'll ever work at a firm. Um, and some people think if you don't work at a firm, like that's where you become a real lawyer. Um, so I think, yeah, I think it's important. My advice is, you know, more the question of why, or like, what do you know about a lawyer? Just, you know, walking them through what that means.
Speaker 1 00:24:35 Yeah. This is, this is really helpful, especially for, for, um, lawyers and law students from other countries. I think because, and I've talked with, with LLM students about this, they did not realize the range of different things that lawyers do in the United States. What it means to be a lawyer has such a, a, a broader and wider ranging meaning than in their home country. And I think you've illustrated that really well. Um, you know, you've delved into a number of things and gotten some terrific perspectives. Uh, and I think that's really helpful for, for an audience of, of foreign lawyers and foreign law students. Okay. Well, thank you so much, Brenda. It's been so nice having you on the, on the podcast today.
Speaker 2 00:25:21 Well, thank you. Thank you, Stephen. It's so much fun to be here. Um, it's always a pleasure to get to speak with you. Um, and if anybody has questions, I would always love to speak with people. Um, yeah, I'm around, but no, it's a, it's a pleasure. So thank you.
Speaker 1 00:25:37 Okay. Okay. And now before we go, let's get back to the dad joke of the episode. What do you call a fake noodle?
Speaker 2 00:25:46 Can I answer it, go for it and then pasta,
Speaker 1 00:25:49 You get it in pasta with a play on the word pasta for, for noodles and imposter sounds. I M P a S T a sounds like imposter, which is something or somebody who's fake and not real. So that is the dad joke of the day explained it's much funnier when we explain it. Of course. Okay. Well, thank you everybody. We're glad to have you join us on the other U S law Central's podcast today and stay tuned for future episodes.
