Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the U S law essentials law and language podcast, the legal English podcast for non-native English speakers that helps you improve your English, listening, improve your legal English vocabulary and build your knowledge of American legal coach.
Speaker 1 00:00:21 Welcome to the U S law essentials law and language podcast. I'm your host today? Steven Horowitz and today's episode is part of our series of interviews with multi-lingual lawyers, including law school professionals who work in cross-cultural environments. I have a special guest today, Joshua altar, who doesn't fit into the traditional category of practicing lawyers, but he knows a great deal about multilingual lawyers. Ash began working with foreign educated LLM students when he was a third year law student, a three L in 2012, and has focused his career on supporting LLM students ever since he has taught legal writing and other courses to LLM students since 2013, including teaching legal English courses in China and the Dominican Republic and guest lecturing in Colombia, India, and Indonesia, Joshua has won awards for his teaching and law school support work and will spend this summer teaching his legal English for American law schools course virtually over the last few years, Joshua has focused his work on ways to better integrate foreign educated LLM students into larger U S law school communities. Hi, Josh, thanks for joining me today.
Speaker 2 00:01:45 Great to see you again, Steven. Thank you for having
Speaker 1 00:01:47 Me. It's really nice to see you again. Um, well, I can see you, but, but of course our listeners can just hear us, but I can actually see you and it is good to see you. Um, so Josh, the first question I want to ask you is, uh, have you ever lived in another country?
Speaker 2 00:02:05 Of course. And so I've had the pleasure of living in China for about two and a half years in my last job, but I've also studied abroad and lived in Australia and Israel. And I worked abroad when I was a law student in the Netherlands for my second year or two L summer.
Speaker 1 00:02:25 Oh, so that's a good range of different places. Um, uh, th th you, must've had some interesting experiences and observations going to all those different,
Speaker 2 00:02:35 I think so. And that's one of the reasons I was drawn to my position to work with students from around the world, because I remember being a student and being an intern in other countries around the world.
Speaker 1 00:02:49 So, so having lived in those other countries, do you speak any other languages? Do you, I mean, can you speak Australia?
Speaker 2 00:02:57 So, um, I can speak a little bit of Hebrew, Spanish, and Mandarin, um, but not at a level of fluency, um, or being able to teach in any of those languages, but I do find it interesting to, um, learn a little bit about other cultures and other legal cultures when I am working or visiting other countries.
Speaker 1 00:03:21 Yeah. Having that wide range of exposure to different countries and cultures must be a real asset for you. Um, and, and I, I, I noticed that your work doesn't fit into some of the traditional law categories. Can you tell me a little bit about what you do or what you've been doing?
Speaker 2 00:03:38 Sure. So about a week after I took the bar exam in New York, in 2013, I started working, um, in law school administration and I taught my first ever legal writing class to four students. Um, and over the years, my work has evolved into all different areas. And so I work with, um, students on legal writing. I work on academic support, career support. I work on the admissions process. I work with alumni and a lot of this is drawing on my expertise from when I was a student. I know what it's like to land at the airport and have to get to the university that you're going to, or to find a new apartment before you've ever stepped foot in a country. And so I try to bring that support, um, outside the classroom to the students as well.
Speaker 1 00:04:33 Yeah. I had the same experience when I went off to Japan and, and I really, you know, I didn't know much Japanese and it's intimidating. And I think that that experience, um, helps develop empathy, um, which I find very helpful in, in teaching and working with students. And it sounds like it's been a real asset for you as well as it really informs your, your approach.
Speaker 2 00:04:58 Right? And so for us, this actually draws nicely into some of my recent work, which is how can we help students before they arrive. So I know we spoke a lot about analogies, the airports and building the runway, right? And so the question is, what can we do with students before they arrive in the United States, or before they arrive at our universities, if they're already in the United States and my pre LLM program and my legal English for American law schools, course, they approached that question a little bit differently, but how can we over three months or a semester work with students so that when they arrive, they don't just know how to brief a case or how to do an Iraq analysis, but they also know what's expected of them where to buy the books, how to network or conduct an informational interview. And this has just been a lot of fun because the timeline for an LLM student is 10 months. Whereas the timeline for most JD students is three years.
Speaker 1 00:06:09 And can you talk a little bit about what is an LLM and what is a JD and are they the same? Are there differences?
Speaker 2 00:06:18 So a J D a Juris doctor is a first degree in law, which me, you and other colleagues of ours have taken in order to eventually for most of us practice law in the United States, you need, you don't need to already be a lawyer to have one. In fact, most people have a first degree or a bachelor degree in another subject before they start the GED in L M is a master's in law. And it is meant to be a degree for people who already possess a first degree in law. And so for people who have a GED, we might get a specialized LLM, like a tax LLM for foreign educated lawyers, people who are already lawyers or who graduated law school in another country, they might get an LLM in the United States in order to enhance their careers.
Speaker 1 00:07:15 So, so in the U S if you go to med school, you become an MD medical doctor. And if you go to law school, you become a J D or you get a JD, a Juris doctorate. And if you, if you do a high-level research, maybe you get a PhD. So those are all kind of parallel. So I have a JD from my law school, from duke law school, and then I got a master's in applied linguistics from hunter college in the city university of New York system. So that's, so that master's at MNA is the same as an LLM. You're saying at a law school,
Speaker 2 00:07:55 It's a degree for someone who already possesses the first degree in law. So the LLM is the degree in law for somebody who already has a first degree in law. And this is actually what I spend a lot of time doing these days is speaking with people from other jurisdictions who already have a law degree. And they're trying to determine what makes the most sense for them in the United States. Is it an LLM for one year? Is it an LLM at a school that may have a JD transfer? Is it a three year JD, like the two of us have, or is it one of these new two year JDS for foreign lawyers where you get a year of credit for the law degree, you already have this doesn't get into online LLMs or other programs. But what I wanted to explain to our listeners is there are so many choices for what type of law to study in the us, and which degree makes the most sense for each individual.
Speaker 1 00:09:04 Yeah, I can imagine it's a, it's a pretty intimidating process to apply to law schools in the U S um, I was, I was recently listening to an episode of the sup China Sinica podcast, and I'll put the, we'll put the link in the, in the show notes, um, where they interviewed a professor, uh, who was originally from China, but as, uh, I think as an American, uh, resident now, um, and she has a book called ambitious and anxious, which is all about students from China, coming to the Tongan, coming to study at U S universities. And one of the things she talked about is how the process of how and where to apply in the U S is so different and confusing and intimidating. And it doesn't seem to have clear lines or boundaries. For example, in China, it's all based on a test for universities. It's very black and white, but in the U S the parameters and what's required is very much less clear. And I can, I can imagine that how it feels for students for most countries, not just China, but other countries around the world, looking at the new S university system. Do you think the same applies for law schools as well? I think. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:10:15 Absolutely. And so this was one of the main reasons why I designed the legal English for American law schools, which as a very broad breakdown is about one third introduction to the us legal system. One third introduction to legal analysis and legal writing, and one third introduction to us legal education and applying to us law schools. So over 32 hours of coursework, my students are learning about the constitution separation of powers, checks, and balances. They're learning how to briefcases, they're learning about Iraq, but they're also learning what will make you a successful applicant for law schools in the United States, whether that's to take the L set, to try to do a JD program, the L set is the law school admissions test, whether that is to apply for a specialized LLM in a specific subject area, or whether that's to apply for a general LLM program, mostly aimed at passing a state bar examination. And so I agree with you and the podcast presenter that last school application processes, especially outside of JD programs can feel very complex, and it can be very difficult to determine how to apply or where to apply.
Speaker 1 00:11:40 So Josh, when you talk about legal English vocabulary, can you give me an example of the kind of vocabulary that might challenge, um, international students?
Speaker 2 00:11:50 So when we talk about legal English, American law schools, I'm trying to help students build up a vocabulary so that they'll understand what's going on. So imagine you're an LLM student, it's your first day, and you're in the cafeteria and there's a second year student. What we call, <inaudible> speaking to a group of students who are first-year students, one else. And he says, I'm, externing at the SDNY this semester. I did really well during OCI and got my Baltz 100 law firm job. I did the right on competition. Here's my advice, make sure you're outlining, make sure you're going to office hours, make sure you're briefing. And you're really going to have everything click in a few weeks.
Speaker 1 00:12:39 That was like a, that sounds like a whole nother language in a, in a big alphabet soup of terms as well. Right.
Speaker 2 00:12:46 And that's even confusing for first year students. One else, there's a lot of words in that sentence that they would have to check on. And so for international students, there can be two levels of confusion. And so for my students, I really want them to think through the language vocabulary of law schools, but also a briefs of certain courses of a lot of different things, which I think will be important for them to fit in, to integrate and to be successful in their programs.
Speaker 1 00:13:22 Can we, can we go back over some of those terms you just used? Uh, I, if I can remember all of them, let's see. And, and I guess maybe we'll put these all in the show notes with, with definitions as well. Um, sure. See, I heard OCI,
Speaker 2 00:13:35 Right. And so OCI stands for on-campus interviews, which is one of the primary ways that students will get hired for their second or maybe third year, summer associate or post-graduate jobs where law firms traditionally will come to campus to interview JD students. And sometimes LLM students, some schools call it early interview week EIW. And so each school will probably have a procedure that is designed primarily for GED students to secure either summer associate positions while they're a summer after their second year or post-graduate positions after they finished their GED.
Speaker 1 00:14:17 External, I am familiar with internships, but what's externing or I guess an externship.
Speaker 2 00:14:24 So this gets a little bit more complicated and I'm definitely not the expert on the language, but my understanding is that an externship is being done for credit as part of your program. So maybe a second year student is getting four or six or three credits to work in the court or work in the organization or work for the law firm during the semester.
Speaker 1 00:14:49 And let's see, another term you talked about was, oh, you said SDM, why
Speaker 2 00:14:53 You can set up an entire legal English class just on the court system of the United States. And so the SDNY stands for the Southern district of New York, one of the four federal trial courts in the New York state. And again, in my legal English for American law schools and pre LLM programs, we spend a lot of time going over these types of vocabulary words.
Speaker 1 00:15:18 And you talk, you mentioned briefing, and you mentioned outlining those the same thing.
Speaker 2 00:15:23 When we talk about, uh, judicial opinion, we talk about a case. One of the things students will learn when they arrive in the United States is about preparing for class because the professors might call on you. And so students will summarize the case through a method, usually known as briefing the case after students are finished with the classes, they generally type up their notes or write up their notes into an outline where they're highlighting the laws that they've learned, the questions that their professors asked and other important information from the classrooms. And so for a lot of schools, you'll start doing this at orientation or in specialized courses for LLM students in order to help them with their professional development and their academic development. And so don't worry if you don't know this on day one, but this is again, one of these reasons where I've designed these programs to just help better build the runway sort of speak for helping students thrive when they do get to the United States.
Speaker 1 00:16:33 Yeah. Really building up the lingo is just half the battle and getting comfortable with those terms. Um, I can't remember any other terms that you mentioned, uh, due to my limited memory capacity and abilities these days,
Speaker 2 00:16:47 One L two L three L, which just stands for first year, second year, third year law student. One of the other ones that I'll just throw out there is you might hear a lot about a cold call. And so we can turn around the podcast where I'm asking the question to you of, do you remember anything about cold calls?
Speaker 1 00:17:05 Oh, I definitely do cold calling, uh, is when the professor, uh, teaching to a large lecture class, we'll just pick somebody at random and start asking them a lot of questions about the case, which is why you have to brief cases. You have to be ready. And I have a, uh, I have my own, um, more story about being cold called in class, um, in my first year of law school where, uh, it was in my torts class and there were, I think, five cases we had to read for that class. And I had read four of them. Um, but I figured, okay, I'm good enough. I ran out of time, but I have enough, I have enough to get by. So the professor happened to cold, call me that day and started asking me questions about the first case. And then we went onto the second case and then eventually onto the third case, the fourth case, and then late in the class, the professor asked me about the fifth case.
Speaker 1 00:17:59 And I said, um, I did read that one. And in front of a class full of a hundred students, the professor says that's okay, we'll wait, go ahead and read it. Now I had to read that, that case in front of a hundred people and then which I could barely do. My, my brain was under so much pressure that I really wasn't understanding anything. And I made my best effort to answer the questions. But, um, it was clear that the professor had made an example of me that day and was letting the other students all know, read the cases, read them all, don't leave anything out, or this could happen to you.
Speaker 2 00:18:37 Right? And so this gets us into integration, right? So for Steven, for a general LLM program, you might be taking professional responsibility, business associations, evidence with second and third year, JD students who already did all of this. So on the first day of class, your professor might just expect everyone's already had one or two years of law school experience. And that's why I suggest to general LLMs in that first semester to try to take one or two or even three of the one L courses, everyone is new to the experience together. The professors know that for most people in the class, this is their first time in law school. And it tends to be a little bit easier. But even for JD students, this is really tough. And so for students who speak English as a second language for students who are international, there can be additional challenges to that. And so we make sure to have an entire pre LLM session devoted to cold calling and hypothetical questions, because it's not just the reading that you do, that the is going to test you on. The professor is also going to make up different scenarios based on the cases you read and expect you to think on your feet, or be able to answer questions that you might not have prepared for which in some jurisdictions is going to be a bit of a surprise for LLM students.
Speaker 1 00:20:07 That seems like really good advice too, about joining a one L class, because there's that sense of bonding you get when everybody's going through the same experience and also about preparing hypothetical's because hypothetical questions are not hypothetical. They actually happen. Thanks for that advice. So in, in terms of the, the courses you teach that help students prepare for, um, their LLM programs or pre LLM programs, what, um, what kinds of topics do you get into and sort of, what's your approach to teach
Speaker 2 00:20:41 For those of you in the academic legal English community? I know that English for a purpose, I've tried to draw on some of your work, Steven, where I'm using legal English for a specific purpose. And the specific purpose is what can I teach you that will help you be ready for your law school orientation? And so I don't try to take away what you're going to learn from your professors at your law school. I try to make sure that my students all arrive with certain reinforced vocabulary and certain reinforced concepts. And so on the U S last side, we focus on the constitution separation of powers, checks and balances. And what we're doing this year is we're focusing on the presidential nominations and then the Senate hearings, and then the Senate voting to show my students how the us legal and political systems are working through article one and article two of the constitution. And as you can see with current events, the Biden administration is nominating. A lot of people. There are Senate hearings almost every day. And so my students are getting to see firsthand how the system works between the executive branch and the legislative branch, which is really
Speaker 1 00:22:03 So, as students are thinking about LLM programs or studying law schools in the U S what are they, what's your sense of what they're thinking about for after their program? Like, where are they going? Where, where are they going to work? What are they doing? And is that something they worry
Speaker 2 00:22:19 About? It's a little bit complex, because when we think about JD programs, we tend to go to them as a pathway to become lawyers. Most of us, at least in the United States, whereas our LLM groups are a little bit different. So in my pre LLM program, I have people who already have jobs in another country who are coming for an LLM to immediately go back home. I have people who are looking to work in the United States. Um, and so there's no one size fits all. And so what we're doing in pre LLM is we're asking students to have an American style legal resume, which I've given them samples so that they can build their own. And so for those who are looking for jobs, the resume can be a springboard for applying for jobs, for people who already have jobs, they can share their resume when they do an informational interview with an alum or with somebody who they want to speak to. And so for the pre LLM programs, career is an important part, but working with each student for their individual situation makes it a little bit more complex.
Speaker 1 00:23:35 So it seems like, I mean, pedagogically, in terms of your teaching approach, you're really looking at, I mean, you're really taking an English for specific purposes approach and looking at what their needs are, what, what kinds of functions, or what kinds of tasks the students need to do and working back and giving them the knowledge and then the language that they need to be able to accomplish that. Um, another question I was thinking about Josh, do you have anything in particular you recommend to students like students? I remember students often getting in touch with me before they arrive, uh, before they start any sort of program at the law school. And they say, what can I do? What can I work on? You know, what, what should I read? What should I listen to? Do you have any, any suggestions or recommendations?
Speaker 2 00:24:26 So for students in my courses, whether that's pre LLM or legal English for American law schools, we have a curriculum designed for them. So they'll spend 13 hours, 32 hours preparing for students who aren't enrolled in one of those two, I tend to try to give them advice on reading things like the wall street journal, the New York times for books getting to maybe is popular for American zero ELLs as they prepare for their law school experience
Speaker 1 00:24:59 And getting to maybe is that a book about negotiation?
Speaker 2 00:25:02 So getting to maybe as a book that helps students understand how us law school tests are run examinations, and because grades play an important factor for a lot of LLM students, they do like to understand us law school legal analysis, and how to structure exams in the United States, which are different than undergraduate exams. Um, for, even for American students.
Speaker 1 00:25:30 That's interesting. I was thinking of getting to yes, which is a book that's used often in negotiation classes in law school and in business school, in another places, but getting to, maybe it has no connection to getting to yes.
Speaker 2 00:25:42 And then there's other porn books and treatises like, um, the Burnham book on introduction to us law that can provide a broad overview of the U S legal system.
Speaker 1 00:25:55 Yeah. Josh, it seems like what you're talking about in a lot of ways is extensive reading is reading things in English for enjoyment. You know, whether that's the economist or the wall street journal or reading about law school exams, because if you're worried about it, you're motivated. And if you're motivated, you're going to read a lot. One of the things I always tell students is that reading speed and vocabulary and background knowledge are so important in law school. Because when you go to take an exam, it's, you know, students worry about having enough time to write well, the, the loss, the exam questions are usually like a page long. And so students who don't read as quickly lose time on the reading and then have less time for the writing. Um, also the amount of reading that students generally need to do in law school is, is far more than, um, what they're often used to. And that goes for American students as well. Um, so anything that helps with reading speed and background, uh, building background knowledge is great. And the best way to do that is by reading a lot, uh, ideally without having to check a dictionary every, every,
Speaker 2 00:27:09 And this gets us into another point that I know we've discussed separately, which is timing, right? And so in addition to all this great work that we want them to do, many of the students who are coming into LLM programs are either practicing attorneys trying to finish up their work. They are students who are finishing their final exams or their bar preparation in their home jurisdiction. They're trying to work on visas and travel and housing. And so the question really is when pre LLM students or people who want to do an LLM are eager. They really want direction. They want experts like you and others in the legal English community to show them in my limited amount of time, what can I be doing for the 5, 10, 15 hours a week I'm willing and able to devote, to preparing in order to best succeed. And so that's why in our pre LLM program, we really only meet one hour a week.
Speaker 2 00:28:09 It's on Friday mornings, Eastern time, we try to have limited but focused readings. And so I don't expect the pre LLM students to spend maybe more than two, three hours a week preparing. And so it would be great if everybody could devote 30, 40 hours a week to enhancing their legal English. But I do realize that for incoming LLM students, that's usually not a reality. And so for law schools in the us, when they're thinking about their summer courses, when they're thinking about their orientation materials is what can you do before students arrive that they're actually going to do and not just look at, but then realize that they're too busy to do.
Speaker 1 00:28:54 Yeah, I, I, and then once they start in law school, there's not a lot of time. I mean, you're doing everything in English, so your English is improving in some ways just by doing it, but then there's ways that you want to improve and you might not have time. And I think that's where you get into the, what, what I like to think of as the in-between moments where you can work on your, on your English and trying to design things around that. Right.
Speaker 2 00:29:22 And we think about when we're giving advice to LLM students who speak English as a second language, when I was a one L and I was reading 20 pages for civil procedure torts, it wasn't taking me 20 minutes. It might've taken me three, four hours. And so if you're reading in a second language, we had to look up words that we didn't know in Black's law dictionary or in other searches. And so you're going to need to spend a lot of time on extensive reading. And the earlier you can start that process. I think the better,
Speaker 1 00:29:58 Yeah, I would, I would agree with that because once you're in law school, you don't necessarily have time to do all that reading for enjoyment.
Speaker 2 00:30:05 Right. And that gets me back to when we think of what a one L experience is. There's a lot of things will click. Things will come together. Don't worry if you don't understand everything right away, don't worry about careers. You'll work with your career advisor in the winter. Don't worry about one L summer internships. Those will happen after fall grades are released. Don't worry about the bar exam. That's not going to happen for another two or three years. And so for me, trying to figure out the one L cycle is great for first year GED students, but for an LLM, who's trying to finish everything in 10 months and sit for a bar exam and look for jobs on a visa. The schedule gets much more condensed. And that's the other reason I really liked the pre LLM because comparing a one L situation to a two semester LLM situation is a little bit of a difficult comparison. And so if we can start the processes earlier, I think it just helps the LLM students a little bit. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:31:12 I would agree with you on that. So Josh, what are, what are some trends you're seeing with international students in law schools in general?
Speaker 2 00:31:21 Sure. So one that I'm closely monitoring and one that I'm excited to see is this trend towards online LLMs, including online general LLMs. And so for students who maybe already have great jobs, people who don't want to leave their home jurisdiction, people who don't want to pay for the travel, what I'm looking at is how successful will these programs be in a lot of the other benefits and enhancing their networks in terms of the credential of an LLM in terms of improving their legal and what that's going to do for residential LLM programs, at least in my opinion, is really helped draw the distinction for people looking to take state bar examinations and looking to work in the United States, whether that's a post-graduate career through their F1 visa, if they're an international student or working in the United States or in their home jurisdiction after they graduate. And so the online LLMs are something that I'm looking to see, because there are a lot of things that we think are great benefits of being in the U S. And so for me, I want to see will this lead to a new market, people who have never done an LLM before now doing an online LLM in us law, or will we see a shift where people who would have traveled to the us, maybe some of them will decide an online LLM is a good fit for them.
Speaker 1 00:32:56 Yeah. So do you think there's still value in residential LLMs, like actually coming to the school and being in person and doing the LLM, or do you think, you think it's, it's, that's going to go away.
Speaker 2 00:33:07 Residential LLMs are not going anywhere for a number of reasons. The first is state bar examiners who allow foreign educated lawyers to take their bar exams 10 generally to still require the residential LLS. Even though there have been some leniencies due to COVID. The other is working in the United States on a visa through what's called the optional practical training process OTT, or the curricular practical training process. CPT still requires those residential programs. And so between bar exams and work experience in the United States, I think there still is a very strong value to the residential LLM programs. And then something that we spoke about at the beginning, which is study abroad experience. I still look back very fondly on my cultural immersion when I visited other countries. When I studied in other countries, the friendships that I made, the experiences that I had. And so even though I think this is a time of evolution for us law schools and their LLM programs, I think residential LLM programs are still going to be a very important part of the process
Speaker 1 00:34:23 Before we go. Do you have any advice you'd like to give to a potential LLM students or international students thinking about a us law school?
Speaker 2 00:34:32 What I've seen is the timeline keeps moving up. So for example, the legal English for American law school course, I'm teaching this summer. There are some students who are going to be in the course, and then they're going to do an exchange at a us law school, um, in the fall or spring of this coming year. And so they're using this as a preparation, which shows that second and third year bachelor of law students are thinking about us law schools from the very beginning. And so what I would say is a lot of us law schools have partnerships with law schools around the world. And if your law school has one of these partnerships, see what options are available for you. Maybe there's a course that's being offered in person or online. Maybe there's an exchange. Maybe there's a joint activity that takes place every year that you can get involved in.
Speaker 2 00:35:29 And the second piece of advice I would have specifically for bachelor of law and master of law students is see, which of your professors who has studied in the United States, or maybe another jurisdiction has already done an LLM or a JSD or SJD in the United States. And see if that professor might be willing to have you serve as a research assistant. This will be great, especially if that professor is working with English language materials, but also when you do apply to the U S one of your professors, who's writing a recommendation letter has experience as a student in the United States as well, and can speak to your potential to be a successful student in a law school, in the U S whether that's an, an LLM or in a different setting. And so I think for students, I think online is going to serve as a benefit and to connect them a little bit more, a little bit earlier in the process. And so my sense is ambitious undergraduate, bachelor of law, master of law, students are going to have some really great opportunities to get involved and to take part in activities even before they fill out their first law school application in the U S
Speaker 1 00:36:46 And it sounds like, uh, if the, if this trend continues, or if this trend bears out, this will also have an impact on how law schools are doing things and thinking about, uh, serving their, their LLM, uh, incoming students. Um, do you have any advice for, for professors or administrators who might be working with these law? Students are
Speaker 2 00:37:09 Working in a us law school. I think there's now a great equalizer. You don't need someone like me who can travel to other countries for three weeks or three years to work. You can set up your own online pre LLM programs. You need somebody who's committed somebody who has the understanding, somebody who can take the time each week to set them up, but it's a great way to build a community with your incoming students, for people in other countries who are listening. See if your law school already has partnerships. And if not check with your international office, figure out which universities in the United States would be good fits based on areas of strength of your law faculty based on cities or regions. And to be able to set up these partnerships, which I think when they're done correctly, provide mutually beneficial activities for both sets of students, faculty, and administrators.
Speaker 2 00:38:11 And so it'll be very interesting to see what happens over the next few years with us law schools. But I do see at least just from my own observations, that a lot of great law schools in the United States are providing a lot of great support, whether that's LLM internships, whether that's programs that are tailored to pass the bar examinations, whether that's mentorship programs between JDS and LLMs is I feel, at least in my opinion, that foreign educated students are getting a lot of support at each step of the LLM experience, which is always a good thing.
Speaker 1 00:38:52 Well, thanks, Josh. This is, this has been really enlightening and I always enjoy talking with you. I'm usually not in a recorded way, but I love getting your insights and, and, and thinking about things with you, because you're always thinking ahead.
Speaker 2 00:39:07 Wonderful. And thank you so much for having me. And I really do enjoy following the U S law essentials. Um, LinkedIn postings. You probably know I'm very big on LinkedIn, and I would encourage anyone listening. LinkedIn is a great way to build your professional persona and your own brand.
Speaker 1 00:39:25 We'll include a link to Josh's LinkedIn profile for anybody listening, who wants to connect with him. Thanks everybody for listening to us law, Central's law and language podcast, uh, thanks to Joshua alter for being here with us and stay essential.
