Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the U S law essentials law and language podcast, the legal English podcast for non-native English speakers that helps you improve your English, listening, improve your legal English vocabulary and build your knowledge of American legal culture.
Speaker 1 00:00:23 Welcome to us law essentials law and language podcast. I'm your host. Steven Horowitz today's episode continues our series of interviews with multi-lingual lawyers and law school professionals. Today's guest is Clara Solomon, the director of counseling and career development, and the office of career services at the NYU school of law, where she has worked for 15 years. Clara has a master's in international education from NYU, and also did her undergraduate studies at NYU, majoring in east Asian studies. Prior to that, she participated in the Japan exchange teaching or jet program. Uh, hi, Clara. Welcome. And thanks for being
Speaker 2 00:01:06 Hi, Steven. Thank you so much for having me and for inviting me to this.
Speaker 1 00:01:10 Yeah, really great to have you, um, before we, before we get started, uh, I wanted to ask you, um, I wanted to start off with a dad joke. Um, I know you're not a dad, but I know you're a mom. Okay, ready? Let's see if you know this one. Uh, why couldn't the bicycle stand up by itself?
Speaker 2 00:01:32 Tell me why
Speaker 1 00:01:34 I'll tell you at the end of the episode. Okay. We'll come back to it. You knew it. If you knew it, we could have, we could have gotten into it, but anyway. Okay. So the first question I have for you, um, have you ever lived in another country?
Speaker 2 00:01:47 I sure have. Um, I've lived in Japan, so I lived in Japan at two different times in my life. Um, the first time that I lived in Japan, I was actually in high school. I went there when I was 15 years old and I lived there for my entire junior year of high school. Um, which was a really transformative experience for me.
Speaker 1 00:02:10 Were you nervous about that being 15 years old and going off? No.
Speaker 2 00:02:15 No, but in hindsight I should have been as a mother now, when I look at my children who are 11 and I think, oh my gosh, I left the house four years older than they are now and lived in a foreign country where I knew no people and did not speak the language. Um, for an entire year, it seems a little bit, uh, nuts, but, um, my high school had a very active exchange student program. And so there were always exchange students from other countries coming to my high school. And every year between five and 10 students from my school went abroad for the junior year. So it was a really well-established program at my high school. And I had studied French. Um, I started taking French when I was nine years old and actually took it all the way through high school. Um, I went to French camp over the summers, uh, you know, took AP classes in French and got, you know, the exams for French proficiency.
Speaker 2 00:03:16 So I really thought that I was going to get an exchange placement in a French speaking country because that would have made sense given my language skills. Um, and the, the program that sent me abroad was the rotary club, which that has a very, they've been doing study abroad programs for decades and decades and decades. And they have a very, I guess they they've developed their own kind of cross-cultural competency model. And so in the interview, they ask a bunch of questions that, you know, as a 15 year old seemed very random to me, it was, and they were very serious. Like how do you think you can achieve world peace? Um, w I don't and I don't remember what I answered.
Speaker 1 00:04:03 How have you, how did you achieve well,
Speaker 2 00:04:06 Joining this podcast is one of the ways that I, for a piece, it was very, I remember thinking, I don't know how I'm 15. Why could I, how can I answer that? Um, but they don't really care. I think what your answer is, but they're looking at how you respond to these difficult questions and they score you on flexibility and adaptability, and then they place the students that they select into countries based on flexibility and adaptability, not based on language skills or personal preference. And I scored very high on adaptability and therefore I got sent to Japan.
Speaker 1 00:04:47 Oh, wow. So the presumption was that Japan was going to throw some, some challenges in terms of, at you in terms of adaptability, but you would, you would deal with it like a champion. Um, and, and what was it like
Speaker 2 00:05:01 It, I mean, I went back after college, so obviously it was good. Uh, it was, it was definitely, you know, it, it changed. I think the course of, of my career, my life, um, going to Japan for that year in high school was really an incredible experience. It gave me a lot of confidence. I mean, going to live in another country at that age, um, having to learn another language I lived in Osaka, which is the second biggest city in Japan. And I had to take their subway every day to get to school. Um,
Speaker 1 00:05:37 I had by yourself, not with like, there wasn't like a host family, sister or brother. No,
Speaker 2 00:05:43 I took, I mean, I had a host family, but they, our kids went to private school and I went to public school. So, um, I was reverse commuting. So I was going from kind of closer to center city out to a public school, a little bit more in the suburbs. And it was a very, um, there, the Japanese public transit system is very, very good. So it was an intimidating, um, compared to like the New York city MTA where I live now, um, not as difficult to situation and, uh, you know, by the end, I think also I, I stood out right. I was this blonde girl on the subway. So people kind of knew who I was on the train and if I fell asleep or something, they'd poke me and send me the right direction. Um, yeah. And so then I came home, finished high school, went to college and majored in Japanese. And when I was in high school there at this public high school, there were Jett teachers, there were two English teachers who were jets themselves at the school that I was at. And they both said to me, you know, when you graduated from college, you should join this Japan exchange teaching program and come back. Um, and so, so that's what I did. So then I went back to Japan for two years after college.
Speaker 1 00:07:03 And the first time you went to Japan with the host family on the rotary exchange, did you, um, face any, uh, struggles with culture shock?
Speaker 2 00:07:13 Yeah. Yes, probably every day. I tell this story all the time. It's, it's kind of funny, but also really, um, I think illustrates just how lost I was and how in over my head, you know, I think at 50, I just didn't know how, how foreign this country was going to be. And so my very first day there, my host family picked me up at the airport and drove me home and they really didn't speak English and I did not speak any Japanese. And so there was a lot of pantomime and a lot of, um, gestures and dictionaries and, um, you know, they put me in my room and I put my stuff down and I took a breath. And then I went to use the bathroom and, you know, Japanese, they're famous for these very fancy toilets, right. With all the buttons on the side.
Speaker 1 00:08:05 Yes. I remember the first time I thought it was like the star ship enterprise, like a space ship.
Speaker 2 00:08:12 Exactly. And all of the descriptions for all the buttons of course are written in Japanese. And I lost it. That was when I first I started sobbing. I was like, I can't even flush the toilet in this country to go to school here. But, um, I mean, that's a funny example, but there were lots of times in, you know, kind of big picture cultural, um, confusion or challenges, um, that, that I kind of knocked up against. I'd never had to wear a school uniform before. Um, the, you know, it's very difficult to fit in as an international student in a Japanese school. So, you know, friends was, was quite a challenge. Um, there were two other exchange students, so we were very close, but make breaking beyond that and making friends with, with our actual classmates. Um, and I was in high school, but I couldn't take like their, Coca-Cola their version of, of what we would call English, you know, Japanese literature classes, because I didn't speak enough Japanese. I couldn't take history again, cause I didn't speak enough Japanese. So I had a whole, my, my entire curriculum was I had two periods of gym. You can do them without having to speak the language. I had home economics, I had chorus. Um, I'm trying to remember what else I took. I mean, it was all like the fluff class. Like it was all the extracurriculars basically that I did because it was the only thing I could handle.
Speaker 1 00:09:47 Oh, did you, did you like them? Are they fun? I
Speaker 2 00:09:49 Had never worked a sewing machine before, so there was another cultural thing, right. There were no men or boys in home-ec, but home-ec was required of the girls in high school. Oh wow. In high school it was required for all the girls and the boys, I guess the boys took shop. I don't actually even know, but there were no, whereas in suburban New Jersey, first of all, I had taken home act, but it was not serious enough to have sewing machines. Like we made chocolate chip cookies and it was integral. Like it was boys and girls together. Right. And we also took shop that was also boys and girls together. So being in this, in this place where they said, oh, this is not a class for boys, or this is not a class for girls was something that was very new to me.
Speaker 1 00:10:32 Yeah. I remember in middle school I had home economics, it was boys and girls. We did, we did some sewing. We sewed these little frog bean bags and we cooked something and yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:10:46 I made an apron. I mean, I, this the first and last thing I've ever sold in my life, but, um, but, but I, my, my daughter, who's 11 is very interested in sewing and she just got a sewing machine. So maybe I need to dust off my skills from, from 16 year old, 15 year old Japan.
Speaker 1 00:11:04 So let me, let me jump ahead. Now, you, you later ended up working at New York university and initially you worked with the LLM students, the international students. So how did that experience, or did that experience inform sort of how you thought about your own students and what they were going through?
Speaker 2 00:11:25 Yeah, that's a great question. Um, and, and I joined this role at the career office at NYU law. Um, even though I don't have a law degree, uh, because of my cross-cultural experience and my experience understanding, you know, the, what, what students might be going through or thinking about or are facing as international students. That was one of the skills that, that may put into this role, advising LLM students. And that's still a huge part of, of what I do on a day to day basis at NYU is working with our students. And I think one of the really great things about NYU is we have an incredibly large, um, foreign LLM program. We have about 350 foreign students a year, um, making us one of the biggest, not the biggest, but one of the biggest, and these students come from 50 different countries in any given year, sometimes more even.
Speaker 2 00:12:26 So what makes it fun is that it's literally, every student is a new experience for me and I get to learn from them. And, oh, you're from, you know, I have a student from Nepal this year. I had never had a student from Nepal before. So, you know, tell me a little bit more about your country. And I think having lived abroad, I mean, one, again, it definitely does make me more attuned to the idea that there there's, even though the students who come to NYU are incredibly smart academically, the best of the best of their country, professionally often coming from leading law firms or leading government, you know, top government agencies or international organizations, they really are incredibly accomplished people, but there's something about picking up and going to another country that it doesn't actually matter how many accomplishments you have or how good your transcript is.
Speaker 2 00:13:27 You will always face that culture shock and that feeling of a little bit of, of alienation or feeling othered. Um, and I actually think as, as a career counselor, my job is to help these students navigate the us and global legal market and think about where their skills fit in and then lately in the legal market. Um, and that, that alienation that feeling of you're not American enough, or you don't have the right training, even though again, our students are, mind-blowingly incredible. Um, that feeling is always there. And so I feel like my experience of having lived in Japan, worked in Japan. I also worked for the Japanese government here in New York for a little while before joining NYU. Um, it makes me much more empathetic to what, what they may be feeling of. Like, you know, I check all the boxes, I've done everything I've been told to do, and I'm still facing a struggle. And I don't, you know, I, I don't know how to reconcile that with all the other experiences I've had.
Speaker 1 00:14:35 Yeah. Once you're in another country and other culture and other setting, it's easy to, to question yourself to lose confidence and I guess view yourself through more of a deficit model where you're focusing on what you lack and your weaknesses rather than, and lose it. And it's easy to lose track of your strengths, I guess.
Speaker 2 00:14:58 I think that's exactly right. And I think that, um, for LLM students in particular, and I'm certainly probably guilty of this as well, but there's a lot of people who spend a lot of time, at least in the job search perspective, telling you all the things you don't have, you don't have work authorization. You don't have maybe ability to take bar in a certain state, um, or you don't have the right core specialization or you don't have a deep, common law background. All you have is civil law background. There's a lot of you don't have X, you don't have Y. And so, like you said, there's this, this kind of self-questioning that falls in. Um, and I, I, I try very hard to also be a cheerleader. I mean, the one thing that I try to tell my students, if nothing else just imagine a monolingual American, which is most Americans, um, trying to take law school classes in your link, in a foreign culture, in a foreign language, there's no way that most us lawyers would be able to do contracts law or constitutional law, much less something, you know, highly specialized, like an antitrust or, you know, a private equity class in a foreign language.
Speaker 2 00:16:16 I mean, it's just doing that already sets these students apart in my mind. So dramatically from the people that are single language lawyers.
Speaker 1 00:16:27 No, you speak Japanese, I think. Um, and do you speak French?
Speaker 2 00:16:33 I can understand. Um, I can read French if someone speaks to me in French, I generally know what they're saying. When I try to respond in French, it comes out in Japanese because my brain, my brain is like not English, so we'll go to the next one. And it's, it does not come out in French.
Speaker 1 00:16:52 And do you, do you know any other languages and do you, do you ever use your, do you ever get to use Japanese or French in your work?
Speaker 2 00:17:02 You know, that's interesting. Um, I, we have, I have a lot of French students, uh, but their English is so much superior to my French. That it's pretty rare every now and then I'll get a document from an employer. So the part of my job is working with our students and advising them and hopefully encouraging them. And then another part of my job is actually developing relationships with law firms and legal employers all over the world. And we, NYU hosts the largest job fair for LLM students in the country. We typically have more than 150 law firms, like when it's not, COVID 300 attorneys will come from all over the world to our campus to interview. And so I maintain a lot of those relationships every now and then I'll get an, an email in French or Spanish or German. And I get kind of excited because I'm like, oh, I wonder if I can read this, you know, and I can respond, I'll respond in English, but at least I can kind of figure out what it says.
Speaker 2 00:18:02 That's the extent of it. Um, from Japanese, it's very, there's quite a few Japanese students at NYU, but the fast majority of them are not seeking jobs. So it's actually very rare that I, as a career counselor, get to meet or interact with these students in my professional life. Um, most of them come generally sponsored by an employer, um, a government agency for the most part, Japanese government agencies or Japanese law firms will pay for their LLM. And then they study and get the credential, um, and usually go home. So I don't have as much interaction as I would like.
Speaker 1 00:18:45 And, and how so now you have two children who are 11, right? Twins. How, how do you explain to them what you do, uh, for your work?
Speaker 2 00:18:56 Yeah, fortunately, I think my job's pretty easy to explain cause we'll help people find jobs. Um, so that, that's what I tell my students. I help people find jobs and then I would get in a little deeper, right, and say, particularly I help international students, um, understand how to do things the way that we do them in America, so that employers will pay attention to them. So that means understanding how to write a resume in the United States style, make it one page, make it very active, make it very practice focused. Um, in other countries, a resume is multiple pages and often very academic focused. So, you know, shifting like that is a really important thing. Um, helping students understand how to interview in a U S style. Um, I'll never forget. I, I talked to a student from Singapore who was very, very nervous about interviewing and this person had had some really great jobs at some of the, uh, particularly one of the best law firms in Asia.
Speaker 2 00:20:07 And I said, you know, I'm surprised are so nervous because you've you've must have interviewed before you've gotten great jobs. And the students that actually, I just got a really high score on an exam. And I was hired based on that. I was never interviewed for that job. They just gave an offer to the person who got the highest score. I think it's actually changed a little in 15 years. I don't think that happens as much in Singapore anymore, but thinking about it that way was very helpful to me to say, wow, you know, they, it's not just a U S style interview. These people may never have experienced it's, it's just an interview may not have actually happened in their prior professional life.
Speaker 1 00:20:49 And do you work with JD students as well?
Speaker 2 00:20:52 I do. I do. Um, and it's the same thing. Helping them find jobs is my job for JD students. The vast majority of them have grown up and been educated in the United States. So we're not teaching the U S way of doing things for a J D the way I am for an LLM. So for them, it's a lot more of, um, career education. What can you do with a law degree? What are different practice areas? A lot of people come to law school, not really knowing what it means to be a lawyer beyond maybe what they've seen on TV, or maybe what they've heard of kind of one person do that ends up in many cases being kind of litigation focused, because that is the image of what a lawyer is in popular culture, at least. And, but even within litigation, there's different areas that you can do, right?
Speaker 2 00:21:49 I mean, there's lots of different parts that you could do a whole range of things. And so helping students, I don't necessarily answer the question for them. I don't say, oh, Steven, you seem like you would be a great bankruptcy lawyer. You should take that class, but I do help them figure out what questions to ask, um, and who to talk to. And what, you know, are there, we put on programs where they have chances to meet people who do different types of practice and who work in different types of setting. Do you want to be a government lawyer? Do you want to be a, a private sector, lawyer? Do you want to work internationally? Do you want to work in a big city? All of these are questions. And so I do spend, and I think a good career counselor does spend a lot of time asking students questions and getting them to answer, um, rather than just telling step one, step two, step three, this is how you do it.
Speaker 1 00:22:47 And are there certain trends that you see in terms of what students are interested or what types of work opportunities are increasing in terms of, of, uh, American students are JD students, um, and LLM students, or in any combination right now,
Speaker 2 00:23:03 The really, uh, super hot area that, that people across the board, both JDS and LLMs are asking a lot about, um, is data, privacy, cybersecurity, um, and that's for good reason. We hear about data breaches all the time. There's a lot of, um, lot legal work surrounding that, both on the litigation side, but also on a transactional side when, when transactions are being put together, making sure that that's structured properly. Um, and, and hand in hand with that, then students are also super excited about, um, blockchain and cryptocurrency and, and that is still a largely unregulated or under-regulated area. Um, the regulations are being put together kind of state by state country by country minute by minute. Um, and how existing laws apply to cryptocurrencies, how existing banking and security laws applied to cryptocurrencies. Um, what does this mean for investments? What does this mean for startup companies?
Speaker 2 00:24:18 What does this mean in so many different areas is a really hot topic. And so it's something that my students ask a lot about. And I had the first time somebody said, I'm interested in blockchain. I was like, I got it. I don't know what blockchain is. So I'm going to go Google that. Um, just another fun part of my job, actually, like sometimes I have to fake it. You know, the student will sit down and say, I want to do X. And I'm sitting like, okay, great. And writing down what X is. Cause I have no idea. Um, but it means I always get to learn something. And then, you know, often I'll say to the student, like, let's look into this together. I don't know what that is, but here's some tools that I would use to figure that out and figure out who does know what that is in the NYU community. And maybe you should talk to that person,
Speaker 1 00:25:03 Right? So you help them learn how to learn about it or what, what some of the paths are to finding out more about it, which is a career skill, as well as a law school skill
Speaker 2 00:25:15 And learn and have the confidence to talk, to, to ask people questions. Um, right. I think a lot of people come into law school, both JDS and LLMs thinking that they have to pretend that they know everything thinking they have to be an expert or at least seem like an expert, right. Because lawyers are experts, but it's also really important to be able to seek out advice and seek out mentors. And to be able to say, this is something I'm interested in, or this is a problem I'm trying to solve, but I don't know how to solve it. Who can I talk to? Um, and I think that that's a skill that I try very hard to impart on my students that it's okay. I don't want them to ever ask. I mean, you know, you say there's never a dumb question. Sometimes there are dumb questions. I don't want them to ask something super basic. Like what is blockchain? They, you should have a baseline, but if you have, I am interested in blockchain and I've seen, you know, this article in the wall street journal, or I recently ran into, you know, this case that I was just reading about. And I'd like to understand that more. Can we talk about that? That's a very intelligent opening and that's something that I think most lawyers are interested in, engaging in.
Speaker 1 00:26:38 And do you think that that interest in blockchain cryptocurrency, um, data privacy, is that coming sort of organically from the students or is that because that's where law firms and government and institutions are hiring or a combination of both?
Speaker 2 00:26:58 I think it's more organically from the students. I think it's, it's an interest that I've seen growing maybe over the past, let's say four to five years. Um, and I actually think the hiring lagged behind the student interests, the students were interested in it a couple of years before the law firms and government agencies started realizing that they needed to hire in that area. And, and I think that may also be very particularly for this topic, like, because the younger people are more tuned into this and the folks who are doing the hiring are not necessarily the younger people who are more tuned in. I don't think that's always the case. I do think that there are other practice areas where the law firms drive. They say, we need people to do capital markets or finance right there. There's currently a lot of need for people to do capital markets and finance.
Speaker 2 00:27:50 So then that's driving that and students are then coming to me and saying, I've heard there's a need for this. What does this mean? How can I figure out if this is a good fit for me? Um, but, but the, the, the data privacy cryptocurrency, you know, a few years ago, there were very few of our senior alums who could say, oh yes, our firm has an established practice in that area. And we're active. Now. Everybody says they have an established practice area in that. Um, but, but the students who kind of started studying it and started looking into it early on, have a distinct advantage.
Speaker 1 00:28:26 So for lawyers or law students in other countries, do you have any, any advice or suggestions for those who are thinking about, uh, coming to the U S to study in a law school?
Speaker 2 00:28:38 Right. Thank you. Um, good question. So I think the first thing I would say is, uh, don't be afraid to put yourself out there too, and don't be intimidated by putting yourself out there, um, be prepared for some rejection, be prepared for, uh, some people to not respond, but also be prepared that people, lawyers, law, professors, people in the legal community will be happy to talk to you, um, and share their experiences. And I always say, lawyers love to talk. So if you put yourself out and ask people a lot of questions, get them talking. Are they an alum of the law school? You went to start asking them about their experience. When at the law school, what was their favorite professor? What was their favorite, local restaurant? Um, anything that you can talk about, they love to talk, so don't be afraid or intimidated, even if it feels a little awkward.
Speaker 2 00:29:37 And I think it feels awkward for pretty much everyone. So, so that's okay. And I think it's really, really important. Um, I would also say the other thing that I feel people forget is you're more than just a law student. You have probably other hobbies, other interests, um, other people that you might be interested in and try to retain that whole self, try to keep up some time for some of those other hobbies, um, one for your own mental health and your wellbeing, but two, because actually there are lawyers in everywhere and I've had students find job connections through, um, through craft brew beer clubs that they joined through pottery classes, through tennis clinics that they went to, uh, and those students weren't looking for jobs, right. They were just enjoying tennis or pottery or whatever, but actually managed to make really good relationships. So be open to unexpected opportunities. Um, just as much as you need to be prepared for, uh, for rejection.
Speaker 1 00:30:43 Yeah. That seems like really good advice. I mean, I, I definitely remember when I was in law school feeling like feeling lost at certain points and, and eventually realizing I ha I was a whole person that I had other things that were part of me and my, my whole identity was not just lost. I think a lot of people go through that. Um, uh, what does, what does an average day of work look like for you if there is such a thing as an average day of work for you?
Speaker 2 00:31:12 Yeah, so much of my job is meeting with students. So most of my day, um, in an average day, particularly during the school year, I'm probably going to have one-on-one meetings with between five and 10 students over the course of the day. Um, right now that's on zoom, but normally that would be face-to-face in my office. So it's a lot of up and down and up and down. And I do try, um, to, you know, spend the first hour of the day looking at all those, all the materials. So if I have five students that are coming in over the course of the day, probably from eight 30 to nine 30, um, I'm going to look at all their resumes. Hopefully they've sent me some, an email with some of their questions. So I have a sense of what we're going to be talking about.
Speaker 2 00:31:59 I might even pull up, you know, if a student says I'm really interested in blockchain, for example, I might even pull up some resources that I've used in the past that I can print those out or email them to the student in advance. Um, so that we can talk about them together then, uh, and also maybe providing detailed commentary on a resume or a cover letter or some other job search document. So that's a significant portion of my day. I also do a lot of event planning, um, thinking about what are our students interested in and what would, what would they like to be? Who would they like to be hearing from? So for example, at NYU, at the, for the foreign students, every Friday in the spring semester, we have what we call the LLM leaders series. And I bring back alumni who are at least five years, graduated from NYU to talk.
Speaker 2 00:32:55 One-on-one kind of like this, but in person about their career. And so, and we'll, and so I spend a lot of time thinking about, you know, what are the hot topics or what are the topics that would be interesting. And also, you know, who do I know that has an interesting experience, maybe someone who overcame a lot of obstacles, right? Maybe someone who didn't have a super easy job search, where they just submitted a resume and got an interview and got the job, but who had to really persevere and work at it. And I'll bring those as well. I'll think about how, how to calendar that out. Um, how to, who to invite, you know, develop those relationships. And then the final thing is managing our employer relationships. And that is both on the JD side and the LLM side, a lot of back and forth with, um, you know, an employer will reach out to me and say, I want to do interview students who speak Spanish and I'll say, great, here's the different ways we can work with you.
Speaker 2 00:33:54 Here's what I'd like to do. Maybe I'll pick up the phone and learn a little bit more about what they want. Uh, maybe I'll try to advocate on behalf of somebody that, um, maybe they've overlooked, um, or I'll try to get feedback. Maybe they interviewed somebody and passed on them and I'd like to know why, so that I can help that student do a little bit better in the future. So that's, I guess that's a breakdown of a week out a day. I don't do that all in one day, but those are the main topics of things I'm doing.
Speaker 1 00:34:22 So a lot of communicating the question, so Clara, um, one more thing I want to ask you before we wrap up, is, is there any advice that, that you've been given in life that, that you'd like to share?
Speaker 2 00:34:36 Yes, I, there is. And I think that the, um, and I give this advice to my students all the time too. And it's, it's, it's a little bit, I don't know, cliche, but kind of fake it till you make it is a real thing. Um, and that's more, I would actually say believe in yourself, right? If there is something that you don't think you can do, but you'd like to try, try and put yourself out there because you ha, if you keep telling yourself, you're not going to be able to do it, or you need to wait another year, or you need to wait until you get another credential or degree, um, you may paralyze your ability to move forward. And I think there's always room to grow and to move forward.
Speaker 1 00:35:24 That's good advice. And I know that the law profession in general tends to be more worried about risks than say the average person in society. Um, but the idea that believing in yourself that you can put yourself out there and try it and trust yourself that you'll be able to then follow up and do it. I know a lot of, um, a lot of consulting businesses, I guess, um, are people say, can you do this? And you say, sure, I can do that. And then you go figure out how to do it. Um, and that's for a lot of people, that's their business. You just figure, you know, which is, which is the same thing they believe in themselves that they're going to be able to figure it out. So, um, okay. So Clara, thank you so much for joining us today. Um, before we finish up, we have to come back to the dad joke of the episode. It was, the question was why couldn't the bicycle stand up by itself? I have not. All of this discussion has not, has not prompted this. Um, it turns out it was too tight. Oh my
Speaker 2 00:36:31 God, I'm going to tell my kids to catch up and they're going to love it.
Speaker 1 00:36:36 I bet they've heard it. They might've heard it already because I learned at one from Mike Q tired of course, is a play on the word too, which could be T O O or a T w O and then tired could refer to the wheel or it could be feeling tired. Okay. So Claire, thanks so much for joining us for this, for this. Uh, wonderful. Thank you, Stephen. It's been fun and thanks everybody for listening to the U S law essentials law and language podcast and stay essential.
