Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the U S law essentials law and language podcast. The legal English podcast for non-native English speakers. That helps you improve your English, listening, improve your legal English vocabulary and build your knowledge of American legal culture.
Speaker 1 00:00:17 All the honorable.
Speaker 0 00:00:22 Hi and welcome to the U S law essentials law and language podcast. I'm your host, Daniel Edelson and we're continuing our series of interviews with multilingual lawyers. And today we're speaking to a very new lawyer who just passed the New York bar exam. Congratulations, choose Shia Cole.
Speaker 2 00:00:49 Hi professor. Hi everyone. This is so nice to hear from you and to get into the channel and a welcome everyone.
Speaker 0 00:00:59 Thanks very much. Um, so why don't you tell me how to pronounce your name correctly?
Speaker 2 00:01:06 That's really a good question. Um, the ax in my first name actually sounds like a C, so it sounds like a trench that it actually means the spring lights, but, um, you can call me violin if that's easier.
Speaker 0 00:01:23 Sure. Violet wait, so your name in Chinese means spring lights, correct? Oh, very nice. Okay. But I'll, I'll call it. I'll call you. I'll call you violet. Anyway. That's perfect. All right, so you just passed the New York bar exam, but let's go, let's go back in time. Where were you born?
Speaker 2 00:01:47 I was born in China.
Speaker 0 00:01:49 Okay. And where in China?
Speaker 2 00:01:51 Actually, it's a city named the canting, which actually like two hours or hour and a half dry from Beijing. The capital.
Speaker 0 00:02:01 That's great. And you live in the United States now, right?
Speaker 2 00:02:07 Yes. I actually, um, live in the United States ever since 2008.
Speaker 0 00:02:15 Oh, so you've been in the United States for a number of years now, have you lived in countries other than the United States?
Speaker 2 00:02:23 No, actually this is some, my, uh, almost a second home.
Speaker 0 00:02:29 So do you mind if I ask you, what, what brought you to the United States?
Speaker 2 00:02:34 Sure. Um, I remember in 2007, I worked in the Sino trans, which is a global transportation company. They actually trying to view a joint venture company with the, one of the, uh, local us located, uh, logistic company. And then they send a bunch of us like a group of delegation to the U S to work. Um, that's how I started. And then the U S company, I'm not going to say the name because the confidential, uh, they actually sent a bunch of engineers to project manager, to the China to work together with us. So we worked like a back and forth for like over a year. Um, the math, my husband,
Speaker 0 00:03:26 Uh, ha wait, so let's take this a step at a time. So your background is not as a lawyer.
Speaker 2 00:03:38 Yeah, you're right. I graduated in China, um, from college as a law degree, but I never practiced in law. I never being a lawyer in China because when I graduated that year, which was 2001 and the logistics is actually brand new, it was a worry hot at that time. So somehow the faith, just the lap, me to the other area, which I never know, I'm going to go back to the mall, special England, other country.
Speaker 0 00:04:13 That is really interesting. And that is one difference between the United States and other countries in that typically in the U S one doesn't graduate with an undergraduate degree in, in law. So you came to the United States as a, as a, an engineer or a project manager. What were you?
Speaker 2 00:04:39 Yeah, I was a project manager at that time. So we were trying to actually set up a whole logistic platform as a new company, which we can introduce all the retail system to China by building a, like, like a PO system, which is like purchase older system. So they can't actually track all the orders they placed and track where they were because a lots of retailers actually trying to set their, another subsidiary company in China at that time. And what we were working on was how to connect, uh, in the technical way to set up a platform. So that both sides that actually can view just in case.
Speaker 0 00:05:26 I see. So you're in the United States working and you met your husband in the United States
Speaker 2 00:05:36 Actually when in China, because he was Santa China as a, it, um, you know, work as IP person. And I was saying to, um, another city, but it was still in China. We worked together as a group who trying to figure out the whole process, uh, how we go into set up and is our work work process together for both companies. That's how we met.
Speaker 0 00:06:03 Oh, that's, that's very nice. So you have a family in China and a family in the United States and you primarily live in the United States,
Speaker 2 00:06:11 That's it?
Speaker 0 00:06:14 Okay. So now I guess the big question that I have and everyone else must have is why did you go to law school in the United States?
Speaker 2 00:06:26 Well, that's really a good question because as you know, when you graduate, you know, everybody's trying to find a job first as fast as they can because all the financial requirement, that's what happened to me. Um, at that time, logistics is a really hot, like I said before. So I went there, I started with my career, um, Alvin, well, all the way in particular, when you're in your comfort zone, it was really hard to jump out. I think everybody should have the same feeling like I do, but, um, somehow Sanks for the COVID, you know, everybody was not knowing what to do, whether we were going to face in the future and we don't know how long this whole pandemic is going to last. Um, I do remember at that time I actually was working in the hospital, uh, cause I just, the goth, Y nursing assistant, uh, program that, uh, certificate because my dad, um, he had, uh, lots of like a hard heart issues and kidney issues.
Speaker 2 00:07:41 So to be able to provide him a better, like a cure, because he doesn't actually speak English and he actually moved to the United States, uh, like 2013, um, I was trying to help him by understand all the terminology, all the doctor and nurses were using. So I learned that program. So I started to, uh, you know, get into the field. I was thinking about I'm going to go all the way towards that field to be a nurse or something like that to continue to study. But somehow the COVID had everything changed. Um, I would just the sinking, what can I do? And is that a time to really go back to my core, if I do that, you know, with all the financial I have a pay and the time I have to put in, is that the right time? Am I able to jump out of my comfort zone? Um, so thanks for COVID. I did. That's how I went to law school.
Speaker 0 00:08:45 This is really exciting and quite interesting. You're you're, you're, you're very brave. So you come to, let, let me just, uh, let me just summarize here, you come to United States as a project manager, your father comes, uh, unfortunately get some health issues and to help him better navigate the medical system. You just go ahead and become a nurse's assistant and you're on your way to becoming a nurse. And then you say, well, you know what? I think I'm going to go to law school.
Speaker 2 00:09:19 Yeah, it's really quite, um, you know, like I like I'm joking, but I did remember why I was working. I was introduced myself. They were asking me, what did you do? And all that kind of stuff. I said, I went to law school in China and everybody looked at me, said, all right, this girl must have quit because the law school is too hard because they don't believe that was the story. I still remember their face. When they, when they heard about it, I went to law school and I'm learning how to measure the vital signs and how to do the EKG. I know, you know, sometimes you don't know where the fate is going to lead you and you just keep going. You, you know, we get married and we have kids, beautiful family. We keep going until one day, you know, almost like a for sleep by something else by COVID and they hit you and say, Hey, you know, you got another chance. Do you want to try? That's my story.
Speaker 0 00:10:23 Well, that's the story? That's the story. So far, I feel like we might do another interview in five years and maybe you've gone on to become an astronaut or something along those lines. So you started, you started law school and I guess now is a good time for me to admit that I knew you as a student a few years ago, when you started at the St. John's university school of law,
Speaker 2 00:10:54 Correct? The professor actually, you are my first, the professor. Well, I started actually, that was last year. July was not that long.
Speaker 0 00:11:06 That's right. And you know, and it's funny we're doing this, um, recording, um, without video, we had online classes and the really funny thing is we, we speak quite often. I have absolutely no idea what you look like. All I know is you have dark sort of longish hair and you wore a mask. And so, because you were in school and I have absolutely no idea what you look like, but you were a, um, you were, you were a, really, a really good student and it was, well, I think, I think everyone in class really, really appreciated all your, all your contribution then. Um, I'm glad you, I'm glad you stayed with law school, despite the fact that you were in a class with me. So you, you start a us law school. And what was, what was your reaction to starting law school in the United States?
Speaker 2 00:12:07 Wow. The first, first thing pressure is, oh my God, they're so young. And I'm all with That's my first impression, number two, the U S uh, colleges system is totally different than at least the ours. It was not easy. It was not something that I can do. Just go there and fooling around and go get a master's degree. I'm totally wrong about that. You really have to devote yourself is not something that easy.
Speaker 0 00:12:42 Right? So you started in the LLM program and you, you mentioned just now that it wasn't easy. Can you talk a little bit about some of the challenges in a U S L M program?
Speaker 2 00:12:57 Yeah, because Eva, we had the law degree in another country, but because the whole system is completely different. So you're approaching the way you're thinking and how you're going to react. And what you're going to expect actually are completely different. Just to make an example, we don't read that many cases. We read all the statues and we don't know why we have the read the cases, why the case is so important and how the reader cases and how to actually compare with the cases. There's so many things kind of like over suddenly being strolling to something, which you don't even know where to start.
Speaker 0 00:13:39 That's an interesting observation. And that's something that I have heard from other students who come from a civil law system. They're so used to reading statutes, but then you come to a us law school. And primarily the study is through reading cases, in terms of the thought process as a us law student. Do you need to think differently from the way that you might think if you were studying law in China
Speaker 2 00:14:20 Completely. I think you're completely right on that. I think at the beginning, like the first semester, or at least the first half, you actually are trying to adjust the way you're thinking. You have to put yourself in a different background, like different culture and how the us law system has actually been viewed, uh, how this case is going to in fact, the whole system. So the whole process you'll have to able to know the, and you know, you have to know some part of culture and then you slowly get approach to, and thinking like a us lawyer, because you're not going to train yourself to be a Chinese lawyer or a French lawyer. You want practicing the us so completely different.
Speaker 0 00:15:12 Do you do anything special before you started law school in the United States to help you prepare?
Speaker 2 00:15:18 Absolutely not. I was just a brand new, the only thing they told me to read a book. So I read the over the edge, you know, the sermons by Joe Grishman. I read all the books. It's not even related. They sat you don't particular to me, don't read anything related to the law. And I listened.
Speaker 0 00:15:37 It's actually a really good tip for people who are trying to improve their abilities in other languages. And I think this doesn't just pertain to people studying law in a different language or people studying just English to improve your ability in English. Just read a lot and don't necessarily read something difficult, read something that you enjoy.
Speaker 2 00:16:08 Right. I actually quite agree with that when I looked back and thought about this and that whole time, all the input, especially you can't go anywhere during that time. So what else can you do? Well, I did a read and read and you will find out, you know, the more you process that using English to sink you, it was English to process. Instead of translate to your own language, then you're slowly and getting to the way to process this language, using their own way. I think that helped a lot.
Speaker 3 00:16:43 And that was a great activity we did in class. I thought where we would take English words and then paraphrase them. In other English words, you said you were surprised by having to read so many cases. Did you have a strategy for,
Speaker 2 00:16:56 Um, if you can call a strategy that I beginning I was struggling because, you know, I didn't have too many JD courses that the JD courses are quite different than the LLM courses, because it's a much bigger class and you actually will communicate with the professor and all the classmates and the way they're not alike on the Chinese way, the professor is going to give you a lecture and go and just listen and take notes. So they're going to ask you questions and the sacrad sway, and you'll be nervous. You'd be cold called. So I do remember, I did read, I thought I read the word well, and then when the professor, you know, give you a cold call and ask you all that kind of questions, you are like a question yourself. Did I ever read that case that he did? There's no way.
Speaker 2 00:17:56 Um, so that was quite difficult at beginning to trying to get used to how to think and how to read a case, how you actually really understand a case because we read it, but nothing we're able to process it until, um, I had a professor, your classes. I'm not saying that because you were right here, but, um, I do remember the way you'll introduce, sounds like a easy thing, like a banana peel wise, but not a POC important by all they're saying is it's sounds like it's nothing related to the law or read the cases, but then you give us like Iraq and you suggest us to make Excel, to compare all the different factors. Why is essential? Why is not? So that whole gradually process, all the information actually slowly build up the way, how you go in to look at a case from different angle. So later, like in the middle of the semester, when we have legal writings and you have read different cases like three or four, which is similar, but it has a lots of distinguished parts that all your strategy about using sell and to compare the factor and to actually dive that aim to analysis, which part is really important and which one is not. And then trying to understand that what is the legislative intent based on what you just made out of comparation. And I thought at that time, that's really helpful.
Speaker 0 00:19:39 Oh, I'm glad, I'm glad it was helpful. And, um, I guess we should add for a little bit of context, you refer to a banana peel and that's a, uh, that comes from, uh, a book and we'll add the name. I'll add the title of the book in the case notes. It's a, it's a question about whether or not someone should get fine for littering when they drop a book, a banana peel, and it's part of reasoning by analogy. And it's, uh, it's a very useful introduction to the common law, to the common law system. And one thing that I do encourage students to do is to create a chart as they look at different cases, to help them compare rules and apply those rules to two different, to different facts. And, um, I'm glad, I'm glad it was. I'm glad it was helpful part of what we were doing in our classes, you know, getting ready to go into a J D class. And it's interesting that you observed that the style in a U S law school is usually not very heavy on lecturing. Rather, the professor will ask a lot of questions and you said that was different from China.
Speaker 2 00:20:59 Yeah. That's completely different than actually brought all this nice memories always versus started. Um, yeah, that was quite different. I do remember when you were giving the lecture, which like you, you mentioned there was small part only when you were trying to introduce the us S system, like what is a prop your law, what is the, a labor law and, you know, give you a brief introduction to let you build up your online, your mind. But beyond that, it's all discussion communication and, you know, talking to a small group breakout room, like your favorite,
Speaker 0 00:21:39 Except for it didn't work online.
Speaker 2 00:21:43 'cause I played by that. That was all the nice memories. Right. And that's how a special year. So I do remember, you know, uh, one of my favorite, uh, the classes you offer to us was doing a deposition by small groups and, or we were trying to set Santo something. We really argued that. And then the class, what worked well, and we really argued, and we really argued like a lawyer.
Speaker 0 00:22:12 Yeah, I remember this and I enjoyed it a lot. It was a bit tricky online. Um, um, it's a sort of thing that, you know, if we had to keep practicing it every year, I guess, so we get better and better online, but I'm hopeful that we can, that students will be able to, uh, participate more in person instead of online. Because I think in person is, uh, is, is a bit better. So, so let's move on. You, you, you're in this LLM program, but you go ahead and you decide that you're gonna take the New York bar exam because you like to give yourself challenges. Is that, is that right?
Speaker 2 00:22:58 Well, I think so, but cause did I not pass the, I can finally say so that at that time it was, I didn't really imagine or have confidence for myself. You know, when you have language barrier, special like me, you have like so many years didn't ever go back to college, especially on the other country. And you know, you have so many outstanding classmates, they're super smart. And the valley K on now, you don't know where you belong to. I guess like, as a foreigner, you will find that stage that you'll fall into yourself. You don't know, are you capable to do that? But then good news is in the us, you'll always have a choice. You always can give yourself another chance. So I did, and I thought that was the best chance I give to myself.
Speaker 0 00:23:56 That's great. And, and you've passed the very first time you took the test. So what was, um, what was challenging about the New York bar exam?
Speaker 2 00:24:11 Everything as nothing, not challenge, it's everything cause this, I think everyone who went through this whole process like me, we all know the way you prepare that because you have seven main subject for the multiple choices. You also have like five or six on top of that to provide the essay. And you also have to analysis the whole cases. So like over 20 pages in an hour and a half, but able to write whatever they offered you to write by follow the instruction. The whole thing they designed this past is to really test your completely complete, uh, knowledge and your analysis ability, your research ability and your everything as a whole. And for us only how one year, the whole experience, particularly you only have maybe one or two JD courses, which is related to the bar exam. For example, like me, I only had contracts and will, and the trust that means the other over 10, 10 subjects.
Speaker 2 00:25:24 I have to learn by myself before I take this test. Um, not to mention, after you finally prepared you did the test and then the waiting time is such a torture. I read, they were like standing on a hatch, don't know what's going to happen. Imagine the definitely felt, how can we restart the whole process? I guess that's the way to train you to always perform as under pressure under stress, under pressure. And I think that's part of the were important, um, uh, like a feature for the future attorney and how you're going to work under pressure.
Speaker 0 00:26:11 It's, it's a good point. And one thing that I'm always concerned about is when I, when I see students who are under a lot of pressure and feeling this great stress on the one hand, I feel like, well, this is natural. This is what you're supposed to be experiencing because it, it is a, it is a challenge. So during times of challenge, people are supposed to feel a certain amount of, of stress. On the other hand, um, I'm worried about people on them. I'm worried about them being overly, overly stressed. Do you have any suggestions on how people can help on, on how people can deal with the stress, especially if English isn't their first language?
Speaker 2 00:27:09 Yeah, I'm one of them. So on top of all the things professor, you just mentioned, we have to always balance the study and, and your family and your life, because you have one chance that you stay in the U S you don't want to stay in your room for the whole year just to get your grades really high or pass a exam. This is a full experience. You want to know another country and you want to get to, you know, connect to with the other person, even during the COVID time, we actually had some in-person courses, which were really helpful to build your network. Um, and also to kind of like a balance, the stress, like you mentioned before, and I start, this thing really works for me, is having a study group and always share with each other, be Frank with each other about what I feel, and not only the academic part special, the part about how they get used to everything, or we kind of like help each other. And especially we all from different country. So, you know, some not everyone's from China. So our study group has, um, some students from Russia and some students from fence. Um, so that was a cool experience. That study group really support us during the bar preparation time. And, you know, after we were waiting, we stayed together and we stayed strong.
Speaker 0 00:28:48 That is a really good point. And something that, that this is reminding me of is I, I teach now at a, at a different university and, um, working with students and most of the students that I work with are, are from the United States. And I asked them, now that you've been in law school for about, you know, half a semester, you just had a midterm. What, what advice would you give students who are just starting? And a number of the students said, okay, well, find, find your people, find people who will support you. And it strikes me that that's just a, really a really important to do to make sure that you have this type of support, not just, not just for study purposes, but also for networking and emotional support.
Speaker 2 00:29:53 Yeah. I totally agree with that. Because as a lawyer, you're not alone, you're going to meet different people. You're going to represent the customers. We are people person, right. We work with the people. That's why in the law school, even your study, as you promote primary passport, I still think work with the people, you know, have you, a social ability is kind of like really important.
Speaker 0 00:30:25 I agree. I think that's a, that's a really important point to make, besides for, um, a study group for bar preparation or in law school. Do you have any other suggestions that you would make for international students in a us law school program?
Speaker 2 00:30:47 Um, if I may, I think something works for me as Fugi own plan. You can do a lots of research about how other person, how they succeed, what is their plan? And you can make a reference of that. But at the end, I think the best one will be the one you constantly to change and adapt to two. The one really fits you to actually, you have to tailor your own plan. That was how I did during my bar exam. And that was also how I did during prepare all the midterm and the final, you know, that's one connect, connecting with each other, uh, like me, we have to do midterm like a March final may, right after that, you're going to prepare bar. So it's already tense. Um, you start make a plan which could be fit for another student that may not be you. So, you know, where's your strengths. Are you also know where's your weakness. So find a balance and constantly change that to make that fit you. I think that will be my suggestion, if that will help you.
Speaker 0 00:32:06 I think that's a, that's a great suggestion. And for everybody listening, if you're looking for help or support, as you embark on your U S law school career, do feel free to get in touch with us at us law essentials and me back and forward a question to violet on your behalf, and maybe she'll be willing to offer you some further suggestions. Thank you very much, violet. This is great time. It was great speaking with you. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:32:39 Thanks for having me. And don't forget to stay essential. Thank you for listening to the U S law essentials law and language podcast. You can contact us at Daniel at us law, essentials.com and visit our website, us law essentials.com. And you can find us on Facebook and LinkedIn stay essential and toxic.
