Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the U S law essentials law and language podcast, the legal English podcast for non-native English speakers. That helps you improve your English, listening, improve your legal English vocabulary and build your knowledge of American legal culture.
Speaker 1 00:00:17 Oh, the honorable.
Speaker 2 00:00:21 Welcome to the U S Los Angeles law and language podcast. I'm Daniel Edelson
Speaker 3 00:00:27 And I'm Steven Horowitz. Today is the next episode in our series. What's new in the legal news. Uh, and today is Dan's turned to pick a story. So, Dan, what did you pick for us
Speaker 2 00:00:39 Today? I've chosen the following new story and as always, we have the link in our show notes, malice murder versus felony murder. A look at the off mode. Arbery murder trial charges.
Speaker 3 00:00:54 Oh wow. That's a lot. That's a long headline. I guess we really unpack this. Okay. So malice murder versus felony murder. So I guess we both know what murder is, but malice murder and felony murder fests sound like terms like legal terms, right?
Speaker 2 00:01:14 Those are legal terms. And maybe before we talk about the difference between malice murder and felony murder, we should talk about the context, which is the, the murder of Mr. Arbery.
Speaker 3 00:01:30 Yeah, because I remember when that first happened and it was in the news and everybody's been waiting for the trial all this time. So this is a very famous well-known trial by that point, by this point, at least in the United States today.
Speaker 2 00:01:43 Right. So it, it occurred in Georgia and the victim, Mr. Arbery was out jogging and three men were just recently convicted at trial for his murder.
Speaker 3 00:02:01 Oh yeah. He was, he was apparently out jogging and somehow they thought he was stealing things or doing something funny or doing something sketchy in the area. And they started chasing him down like a, in a, in like a pickup truck.
Speaker 2 00:02:21 That's exactly right. So my understanding is they followed him in the pickup truck. One of them had a shotgun, they stopped him. They demanded that he speak to them. And during their altercation, one of these three men, I think his first name is Travis shot and killed Mr. Arbery with his shotgun, with the shotgun.
Speaker 3 00:02:47 So basically these, these three white men decided that this black man was guilty of something. And, you know, it looks like they decided to, to deal out their own version of justice, which resulted in killing this man. Um, and, um, you know, even, even if he wasn't jogging, even if he were doing something suspicious or trying to Rob a house or something like that, like still, we don't, we don't give the death penalty for, um, for robbing a house. So, and you certainly, you know, especially can't chase people down and shoot them. And, and that's the part that feels, so I think so visceral, and so, so similar to so much history that has happened in the U S um, in terms of the prosecution and the killing of black people in America.
Speaker 2 00:03:43 Right. And I think that's, that's certainly one, one element of this story. I was thinking of focusing a little bit more just on the legal terms, rather than some of the, perhaps the more important social issues, which is this idea of felony murder, which is really, I think, unique to the United States, as far as I know, no other country has the felony murder rule. I often find that many students are surprised by it and have never heard of this before.
Speaker 3 00:04:18 And it's kind of a funny term because murder is a felony. So felony murder seems kind of redundant now.
Speaker 2 00:04:26 Yeah, that's, that's a good point. So, so let's start with, um, with the first term, what, what is, what is a felony and a felony in us? Criminal law is any serious crime. So typically if a crime can be punished by more than one year in prison, we usually say, that's going to turn out to be a felony, as opposed to a lesser serious crime, which might be called a misdemeanor.
Speaker 3 00:04:54 And usually I, you know, when we, when we think about murder, I think people know and are familiar with the terms first degree murder, second degree murder, third degree murder, or first degree murder is the most serious one,
Speaker 2 00:05:08 Right? And this is, this is where it becomes just a little bit complicated. You learning us criminal law because each state has its own particular criminal law. So almost every state, at least divides crimes into serious crimes and less serious crimes where the serious crime is known as a felony, New York and many other states also have degrees of crime. So like you said, a first degree murder would be considered the most serious type of murder. This, this crime took place in Georgia. And my understanding is Georgia actually does not use the term degrees when it comes to murder. Instead they have something called malice murder, which is considered the most serious type of murder. But Georgia, like many other states in the United States also has this category of crime called felony murder, where you can be convicted of murder. Even if you weren't the person who actually pulled the trigger.
Speaker 3 00:06:11 Oh, wow. So malice murder is kind of like first degree murder.
Speaker 2 00:06:16 That's my man.
Speaker 3 00:06:18 It's like, that's the serious one. Like you meant to do it. You tried to do it. You did it. And, but felony murder is not necessarily the same as like second or third year.
Speaker 2 00:06:29 Right? Felony murder is where if you are participating in a violent felony and during the course of this violent felony, someone is killed other than one of the other than one of the criminals, you're liable for that. Person's death. You're liable for murder. Even if you weren't the person who actually caused that person's death.
Speaker 3 00:06:58 So Dan, so let's say you and I decide to Rob a house.
Speaker 2 00:07:03 Sounds good. You
Speaker 3 00:07:04 Comfortable with this?
Speaker 2 00:07:06 Sure. You know, we've
Speaker 3 00:07:08 Done this several times already, so you know, it can be open and honest. Um, okay. So let's say you and I decided to Rob a house and robbing a house is considered a felony, I think.
Speaker 2 00:07:22 Right. And it's a violent felony because it's a robbery where we're threatening people with weapons in order to get money. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:07:30 Going to a house where like, give us your money. And then in the end you will have a gun. Okay. And, um, and I can get all the money and I'm going out the door. And as I'm going out the door, you have a little trouble with somebody and you shoot them and you kill them.
Speaker 2 00:07:47 Well, they shouldn't have gotten in my way.
Speaker 3 00:07:49 Yeah. Now they know not to mess with them anyway. So we get caught by the police as, as does tend to happen. And, um, and we go to trial and you get convicted of we're in Georgia. So you get convicted of malice murder. Right. But then the prosecutor also brings charges against me for felony murder. Just because I was with you involved in the same felony crime.
Speaker 2 00:08:19 Right. Because you were, yeah. That's exactly right. So felony murder rule means because you were participating in the underlying crime and someone got killed. You're going to be liable for murder because you were also part of the robbery. Hey, but Lou, let me change the scenario for a second. Okay. Let's say we decide to Rob a store and I'll be the guy carrying the gun.
Speaker 3 00:08:45 Let me just run this past my wife before I
Speaker 2 00:08:48 Agree. No, no, no, no, no. She'll talk you out of it. And, and you, your, you drive the getaway car, like your, you wait outside the store just to drive us away with our money. And I, and I do the same thing. I, unfortunately, I kill someone. You would still be potentially liable as for felony murder, because even though you weren't actually in the store with me, you were still helping in this robbery by driving the getaway car.
Speaker 3 00:09:21 Oh, let's take it another step further. What if I am a computer hacker and I hack the security system on at the bank or the store where you went and shut off the cameras or something like that and make it easier for you to get inside or get access to the money. So I'm like I could be in another state. I could be somewhere else. I could be, I could be 20 miles away, a hundred miles away, but I'm still committing that robbery. Or maybe I'm still a part of that robbery. So I guess I could be convicted of felony murder two if it were a felony murder jurisdiction.
Speaker 2 00:10:03 I think so. I, you know, we we'd, obviously we'd have to look at this specifics.
Speaker 3 00:10:08 There might be other things that I could be guilty of if I'm, you know, hacking or using the internet, which is crosses state lines, which means it gets into federal, federal laws potentially. Um, so, but, but, but all that aside, I could still potentially be guilty of felony murder, I guess
Speaker 2 00:10:29 I would think so. I mean, the hacking itself, as long as it's not a violent part of a violent crime, I don't think what triggered the felony murder role. But if it's part of this robbery, I would think that it could be, I know certain states have certain defenses. So perhaps in perhaps there's some state where if you're, you know, miles away and just part of the, you know, infiltrating the security system or something like that, you know, electronically that you wouldn't be subject to the felony murder rule. But I believe a number of states the laws broad enough that you could still be convicted.
Speaker 3 00:11:11 No. Can you think of another situation where somebody could be involved with a commission of a crime of a, of a murder, but they don't actually pull the trigger and they don't do anything else to directly kill the person yet they could still be held guilty of murder for the same Margaret.
Speaker 2 00:11:32 I bet you go on. Go ahead. What do you think?
Speaker 3 00:11:35 Well, I'm thinking of conspiracy.
Speaker 2 00:11:38 Aha. Like a contract killing.
Speaker 3 00:11:41 Yeah. Yeah. That's a great example. So let's say I hire you to kill a third person and I don't pull the trigger. And yet if you in killing the person and we get caught, uh, I can be still convicted for murder, even though I didn't directly commit the murder. So that would be conspiracy. Um, but that feels a little bit different than felony murder.
Speaker 2 00:12:09 Yeah. I th I, you know, my experience with students is a number of them are really surprised by the felony murder rule. And we should add, there is a strong movement in the United States against the felony murder rule on grounds that it's just unfair to convict people who didn't actually commit the very act that caused the person's death.
Speaker 3 00:12:33 Yeah. What are some of the examples you can think of where it might be unfair?
Speaker 2 00:12:37 Well, by way of example, that, that getaway car example, you know, when, when I first learned about felony murder in law school, I think we were taught that that example where somebody really had the role of driving the car to take the people away who are escaping from their robbery and that person, then that person was subject to the felony murder rule. And it does seem unfair because maybe this person really just didn't want to be part of any of the violence, but was willing to help the people escape. You know, w w when we first, when I first studied felony murder and law school, um, I think my professor was very much against it, but he, he wanted to give equal time to the argument why some people support it. And the, I think one of the arguments in favor of it is, well, it'll discourage people from killing people during the commission of violent crimes. So a number of years ago, there was a, I think it was a bank robbery in California, and the people who come into the crime were on tape. And they kept on saying out loud to each other, the, the number of the statute that referred to the felony murder rule. And it was clear that they were telling each other don't kill anyone, because if you do, we're all going to be liable for murder.
Speaker 3 00:14:05 Oh, interesting. So in other words, they're thinking that the creators of the law are thinking, well, these, these robbers or these felony committers are there, they're aware of everything. They know what they're doing.
Speaker 2 00:14:19 Yeah, I, yeah. I think that's the argument that
Speaker 3 00:14:23 You're picturing, but yeah, ality might be very different,
Speaker 2 00:14:28 Right? Th the reality might be different or there might be an argument that, you know, that it's fair. You know, you, you go out with two other people. One of them has got a shotgun and, you know, you're doing something really violent and dangerous that maybe, maybe you should be held responsible if you're willing to participate in that kind of violent activity.
Speaker 3 00:14:49 Yeah. I mean, if you're, if you don't offer to be the getaway driver, then they're not going to go in there in the first place with a shotgun
Speaker 2 00:14:56 Maybe. Right. So I, yeah, so that's that, I guess that's sort of the thinking on, on both sides,
Speaker 3 00:15:04 But on the, on the, on the downside, there's people who are doing things where maybe they think I'm doing something bad, but I'm not committing murder and they never had any intent or anticipation that they would be involved in murder. Um, I guess that does seem a little bit over the top since murder, we generally associate murder with, with intention or at least recklessness, um, you know, not just incidentally you happen to be somewhere and somebody who was involved in an activity with you committed murder,
Speaker 2 00:15:35 Right. And especially when the people who are involved are young, it just sort of seems like, well, this is your typical, maybe not the best kid in the world, but wrong place, wrong time. And this person didn't actually do what caused the person's death. Maybe they deserve a little bit more leniency than being convicted of murder, but that that's a question for the legit.
Speaker 3 00:16:03 So, so what happened in this case with, with, uh, Mr. Arbery? Well,
Speaker 2 00:16:08 The, the man who pulled the trigger was convicted of malice murder, and that's, that's under Georgia
Speaker 3 00:16:14 Law, Michael Wright,
Speaker 2 00:16:16 He's the guy who pulled the trigger, but the two people who joined him in this confrontation with Mr. Arbery, they were, they, they were acquitted. They were not convicted of malice murder, however, they were convicted under the felony murder rule. So they are in some ways, just as guilty as the person who actually pulled the trigger on the shotgun and took the victim's life.
Speaker 3 00:16:42 Huh. I wonder if that'll have any impact. I wonder if the high profile nature of this case may have any impact on the future of this law in the state of Georgia, if there'll be any push to change it in the wake of this,
Speaker 2 00:16:56 That'd be interesting. That'd be interesting, especially given the highly charged nature of these, these events.
Speaker 3 00:17:02 Well, thanks, Dan. This is a, this is a really relevant and current topic to be thinking about, um, in terms of the American legal system, uh, and a great discussion to have,
Speaker 2 00:17:13 Thanks, Dave. And if any of our listeners have suggestions for topics that they'd like us to cover, we certainly welcome your input. And you can email me at Daniel at us law, centrals.com,
Speaker 3 00:17:25 Or you can also go to our us law, Central's Facebook group or LinkedIn group. And you can, uh, put your ideas in a, in a discussion there as well, as well as having a discussion of, of this topic and any other topics. Uh,
Speaker 2 00:17:41 And in the case notes, we'll have links to the Lincoln page, Facebook page, this article, and the U S law essentials, YouTube video on the felony murder rule. Great.
Speaker 3 00:17:50 Okay. So, well until next time, stay essential. Stay
Speaker 2 00:17:54 Essential. Thanks.
